I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave) with natural gas.? I can do all that for less than electric heating one room part time.? I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for making heat.
I paid $450 for a year. I make my own electricity so raising my panel depth is in the works. Can't imagine you would be paying less than me. It costs $120 a year just for the privilege of using gas. Not to mention the poison you are making and breathing. In American homes, this setup is quite common, but gas appliances—and gas stoves in particular—have costs. Cooking on a gas stove unleashes some of the same fumes found in car exhaust. If those fumes are not vented outside the house, they linger and sneak into lungs. They discovered that 62% of households using gas burners without venting range hoods are routinely exposed to excessive levels of nitrogen dioxide, 9% to carbon monoxide and 52% to formaldehyde, gases that can cause respiratory problems and worsen asthma and cardiovascular disease. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-xpm-2013-nov-06-la-sci-sn-gas-stoves-air-pollution-california-20131106-story.html Lawrence Rhodes On Sunday, May 9, 2021, 5:07:22 PM PDT, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: Send EV mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of EV digest..." Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the bottom of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying. Today's Topics: 1. Re: opinion article on hydrogen ((-Phil-)) 2. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Lawrence Rhodes) 3. The state of EV's 1890 to 1922 (Robert Bruninga) 4. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Lee Hart) 5. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Larry Gales) 6. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Jim Walls) 7. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Mark Abramowitz) 8. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (EVDL Administrator) 9. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Larry Gales) 10. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (EVDL Administrator) 11. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (EVDL Administrator) 12. Re: opinion article on hydrogen (Bill Dennis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 12:35:49 -0700 From: "(-Phil-)" <[email protected]> To: EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <cahenfdpfhencjt648nkq4-qkvga-wml1sw3g_5pmdcsmmdz...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current tech that can handle it. People aren't just going to stop flying. The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed to be at least carbon neutral. The solution to get free-enterprise to work on this is a real carbon tax. On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote: > On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the > > carbon cycle. It will take a long way to get there of course, as the > > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive > > operation, but this can be fixed over time. > > With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much hand- > waving for my taste. > > The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, processing > them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial > energy > input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels. Even fertilizer and > pesticides are made from petroleum. I just don't see that equation > changing > fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time. > > The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer sooner > - > and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation. For > example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus > wood. > The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought and > paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as easily > as they can from corn processed into ethanol. > > There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are starving > round the world has some ... ethical considerations. > > > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is > > good. > > Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production > capacity is a good one. We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with > battery > recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic materials. > NiMH, anyone? Hello? > > But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I mean > real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is fading > as > true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply. > > It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging than > it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling. > > Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically > more > reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both. I > haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be > less > carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a longer > service life. > > Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly complex, > almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial > production > and massive amounts of long-term development. > > Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving > rapidly > and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research > into > battery optimization. > > Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could > certainly > be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are > poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them. True hybrids > may > still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. > > -- Anonymous > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 19:37:42 +0000 (UTC) From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 ?No transition fuel needed. As people who use energy realize the cost factor fossil fuel will die and renewables will thrive. My case in point is over the last couple of years we have switched from natural gas for heating and cooking. It was the pandemic and we drove much less but with the use of electric space heaters, induction cooking, heat pump clothes drying, electric hot water heater(old school) and car charging we spent $450 for the year on electricity. Our solar system is modest at 2.4kw.? We tried to use solar directly when the sun shined. ? Nuf said. Lawrence Rhodes ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 17:09:47 -0400 From: Robert Bruninga <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922 Message-ID: <caldcfnlyhlr-ytk4m5c0g+pjy8x3jq7zeahgvpao4jtqamz...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Im reading "The Electric car in America 1890 - 1922" and throughout, > it prints articles (mostly ads) claiming 35, 50 and 100 mile ranges but NONE > of > those were made under peer review condition. Throughout, the real > honest reporting concluded over and over again, that about 20-25 miles > was the routine repeatable range.... which rose to about 50 miles by 1910 or > so. But the one thing that surprises me is the assumed mileage. Generally the average miles per month was on the order of 1000 miles per month that is not that far off from our present assumptinos of average mileage around 15k miles a year or simiilar to 1200 miles a month. And that was over the most ridiculous roads. Though I assume that statistic is only for people with cars, which was extremely small. Oh, electricity cost about ten cents per kWj, about the same as today (without conversion to inflation). Oh, and the average mileage of a horse was about 40 miles a day, again, the same as todays average family daily travel. Bob ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:25:46 -0500 From: Lee Hart <[email protected]> To: Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Biofuels don't have to be made from crops. We have an enormous waste > stream with high carbon content. Imagine a process to convert that into > methane and oil, which could then be reused to produce virgin plastic. > Or fuel jet planes. I seem to recall that Brazil makes a significant amount of ethanol for vehicle fuels out of the waste from sugar cane crops. Instead of burning it, they process it into alcohol. There are certainly cleaner ways to produce biofuels. But the almighty dollar and government subsidies make the US use corn for making alcohol. Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 14:08:58 -0700 From: Larry Gales <[email protected]> To: [email protected], Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <cagon6trpoj1ntbzmngoanbouhtmbu6iqy5avz0kzg9szz9p...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" There are 3 major types of flying to consider: (1) VTOL (mainly helicopters), (2) regional flights up to 600 miles (more than 1/2 of all commercial flights are within 600 miles), and (3) long distance flights, more than 600 miles. For the first two types, battery powered electric aircraft (like the 600+ mile range Eviation Alice), and VTOL are simply far superior to what we have now, in terms of cleanliness, quietness, safety, smoothness, and dramatically lower fuel and maintenance costs. So, instead of flying less, we will likely be flying more, and paying much less. Some time ago I ran the figures for the cost of CH4 (methane) fuel if we created CH4 by (a) electrolyzing water to get H2, (b) using Direct Air Capture to get CO2, and (c) using the Sabatier process to produce CH4. When burned in a jet engine it is carbon neutral because the CO2 we emit is exactly the amount of CO2 that we captured. I don't remember the exact cost of the fuel, but it was less than twice what it is now. But, given that fuel cost is only 20% of the cost for current flights, that translates to prices about 20% more than at present. So, maybe the very low cost of short range battery powered aircraft which makeup more than 1/2 of all flights could subsidize the longer flights? On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:36 PM (-Phil-) via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your > proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? > > Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current tech > that can handle it. People aren't just going to stop flying. > > The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just > like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed to > be at least carbon neutral. The solution to get free-enterprise to work on > this is a real carbon tax. > > On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the > > > carbon cycle. It will take a long way to get there of course, as the > > > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive > > > operation, but this can be fixed over time. > > > > With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much > hand- > > waving for my taste. > > > > The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, > processing > > them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial > > energy > > input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels. Even fertilizer and > > pesticides are made from petroleum. I just don't see that equation > > changing > > fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time. > > > > The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer > sooner > > - > > and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation. For > > example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus > > wood. > > The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought > and > > paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as > easily > > as they can from corn processed into ethanol. > > > > There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are > starving > > round the world has some ... ethical considerations. > > > > > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is > > > good. > > > > Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production > > capacity is a good one. We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with > > battery > > recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic materials. > > NiMH, anyone? Hello? > > > > But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I mean > > real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is fading > > as > > true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply. > > > > It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging > than > > it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling. > > > > Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically > > more > > reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both. I > > haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be > > less > > carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a longer > > service life. > > > > Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly complex, > > almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial > > production > > and massive amounts of long-term development. > > > > Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving > > rapidly > > and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research > > into > > battery optimization. > > > > Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could > > certainly > > be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are > > poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them. True hybrids > > may > > still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer. > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. > > > > -- Anonymous > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- Larry Gales -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/7e68de44/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 14:38:45 -0700 From: Jim Walls <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 05/09/2021 12:37, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote (in part): > My case in point is over the last couple of years we have switched from > natural gas for heating and cooking. It was the pandemic and we drove much > less but with the use of electric space heaters, induction cooking, heat pump > clothes drying, electric hot water heater(old school) I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave) with natural gas.? I can do all that for less than electric heating one room part time.? I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for making heat. -- 73 ------------------------------------- Jim Walls - K6CCC [email protected] Ofc: 818-548-4804 http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/ AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395 ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:02:45 -0700 From: Mark Abramowitz <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This is, and I think, will be changing. Technology moves forward. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On May 9, 2021, at 10:18 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > ?May 8, 2021 10:10 AM, "(-Phil-) via EV" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From what research I've done, I believe BioFuels are a better stop gap than >> H2. > > Perhaps some day this will be true. However, the major 'biofuel' we produce > in the USA is ethanol and numerous studies indicates that the way we produce > ethanol uses more pertroleum fuel that it offsets. > Worse than that, the polution that results from farming and refining ethanol > (mostly)stays in this country while the majority of the ethanol is sold to > overseas customers. > > Then there is the fact that growing biofuel uses a lot of land (as well as > other resources), if we used ALL of the arable land in the USA to grow > biofuel, it wouldn't offset even 1/4 of our petroleum consumption. And of > course if we use all of the land to grow fuel, we wouldn't have any food to > eat. > > If we could figure out how to grow fuel without consuming massive amount of > petroleum, then it might make sense to grow limited amount of biofuel for > those applications that can't be solved with electricity. However, I suspect > that long before we solve that problem, there will no longer be applications > that can't be solved with electricity, or some other green solution they > might come up with. > > > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 18:38:22 -0400 From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9 May 2021 at 14:38, Jim Walls via EV wrote: > I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave) > with natural gas.? I can do all that for less than electric heating one room > part time.? I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for making heat. I have two reactions to this. 1. You're just one case. Not everyone has the same relative costs for fuel gas and electricity. 2. What it costs you as an individual is only part of the picture. We also have to consider what it costs society - both monetary and health. Ultimately that's a cost to you too, because your taxes have to cover it. Comments on the above: Our costs for fuel gas here in the US are temporarily unnaturally low, because the determined scramble to crush every bit of shale rock under this nation and release all its fuel gas has created a gas surplus. It won't last. Other nations have to import their gas, in some cases from nations they'd rather not have to patronize. Much of western Europe is shifting to renewables, both for this political reason, and to reduce their carbon emissions. So typically they price their gas to encourage electricity use, and in some cases no longer approve new fuel gas installations. Take France for example. Electricity is about 0.16 euro per KWH, and gas is about 0.075 euro per KWH. Seems like a no-brainer at first glance. But a heat pump with a COOP of 3.3 (typical minisplit) effectively cuts the electricity cost to 0.048 euro per KWH of heat produced. When you do the math, you find that, in France, a minisplit is the lowest cost home heat source. It's even cheaper than heating with wood, formerly the low cost champ. As a further incentive, the French government subsidizes heat pump installations. BTW, they also subsidize EVs directly, at 7,000 euros for most models, and give homeowners a tax credit toward installing EVSEs. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The business model of the internet is surveillance. -- Bruce Schneier = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:39:35 -0700 From: Larry Gales <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <cagon6tpy_mvmjol0b9anemvowbntu3ly9t6k3pf6rjzf_ah...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Well, natural gas may be cheaper at present, but it is neither sustainable nor clean On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 3:36 PM Jim Walls via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > On 05/09/2021 12:37, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote (in part): > > My case in point is over the last couple of years we have switched from > natural gas for heating and cooking. It was the pandemic and we drove much > less but with the use of electric space heaters, induction cooking, heat > pump clothes drying, electric hot water heater(old school) > > I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave) > with natural gas. I can do all that for less than electric heating one > room part time. I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for > making heat. > > -- > 73 > ------------------------------------- > Jim Walls - K6CCC > [email protected] > Ofc: 818-548-4804 > http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/ > AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395 > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- Larry Gales -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/abb8ad10/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 18:38:22 -0400 From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 9 May 2021 at 18:30, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > I've seen a prototype reactor (high pressure, high temp, with a > catalyst) I'm all for snagging energy from the waste stream, but pressure and heat require energy input. Where will it come from? And how does that input compare with the energy that the product produces? That's the big hammer hanging over ethanol's head, too. I may be missing something, but I don't see any comparable ongoing energy input for PV, wind, tidal, or geothermal sources. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 18:52:52 -0400 From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 9 May 2021 at 12:35, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your > proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? Sorry if I offended, I didn't mean to. What I mean by hand-waving (though this definition is a bit rough): www.lexico.com/en/definition/hand_waving > biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive operation, > but this can be fixed over time. I'm not an expert on these matters, so please forgive my skepticism, but I just don't see a clear path yet to a solution. Please don't take offense, but that's why I think it's hand-waving to say that with such confidence. I may have missed something, but the biofuels energy input problem doesn't seem to be as tractable as the EV battery problem has been. Back in the 1980s we could say with some certainty that the battery problem would be solved in time. Nickel-hydrogen batteries, NiMH forerunners, were used in satellites in the late 1970s. The first lithium ion prototype landed in 1985. By 1989 or 1990, I was hearing of lithium batteries as the probable future of EVs. Is there a comparable route to making biofuels with sustainable energy input? Considering how much more efficient it is already to make electricity with PV, store it in batteries, and run EVs on it directly, do you really think that biofuels have a bright future for transportation use? I mean barring blatant political intervention of course. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First they came for the journalists. We don't know what happened after that. -- Unknown = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 17:44:58 -0600 From: "Bill Dennis" <[email protected]> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's a link to a timely video on the hydrogen flying topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFlV1jY6K7Q Bill -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Gales via EV Sent: Sunday, May 9, 2021 3:09 PM To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Cc: Larry Gales Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen There are 3 major types of flying to consider: (1) VTOL (mainly helicopters), (2) regional flights up to 600 miles (more than 1/2 of all commercial flights are within 600 miles), and (3) long distance flights, more than 600 miles. For the first two types, battery powered electric aircraft (like the 600+ mile range Eviation Alice), and VTOL are simply far superior to what we have now, in terms of cleanliness, quietness, safety, smoothness, and dramatically lower fuel and maintenance costs. So, instead of flying less, we will likely be flying more, and paying much less. Some time ago I ran the figures for the cost of CH4 (methane) fuel if we created CH4 by (a) electrolyzing water to get H2, (b) using Direct Air Capture to get CO2, and (c) using the Sabatier process to produce CH4. When burned in a jet engine it is carbon neutral because the CO2 we emit is exactly the amount of CO2 that we captured. I don't remember the exact cost of the fuel, but it was less than twice what it is now. But, given that fuel cost is only 20% of the cost for current flights, that translates to prices about 20% more than at present. So, maybe the very low cost of short range battery powered aircraft which makeup more than 1/2 of all flights could subsidize the longer flights? On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:36 PM (-Phil-) via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > If future true carbon neutral is "handwaving", then I'd love to hear your > proposal for long-distance air travel? What have you got? > > Right now until we have something like fusion, There isn't any current tech > that can handle it. People aren't just going to stop flying. > > The only path I can see right now is Biofuels, Yes it's dirty now, just > like coal on the grid powering EVs, but it most definitely can be fixed to > be at least carbon neutral. The solution to get free-enterprise to work on > this is a real carbon tax. > > On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the > > > carbon cycle. It will take a long way to get there of course, as the > > > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive > > > operation, but this can be fixed over time. > > > > With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much > hand- > > waving for my taste. > > > > The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, > processing > > them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial > > energy > > input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels. Even fertilizer and > > pesticides are made from petroleum. I just don't see that equation > > changing > > fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time. > > > > The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer > sooner > > - > > and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation. For > > example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus > > wood. > > The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought > and > > paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as > easily > > as they can from corn processed into ethanol. > > > > There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are > starving > > round the world has some ... ethical considerations. > > > > > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is > > > good. > > > > Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production > > capacity is a good one. We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with > > battery > > recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic materials. > > NiMH, anyone? Hello? > > > > But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I mean > > real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is fading > > as > > true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply. > > > > It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging > than > > it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling. > > > > Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically > > more > > reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both. I > > haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be > > less > > carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a longer > > service life. > > > > Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly complex, > > almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial > > production > > and massive amounts of long-term development. > > > > Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving > > rapidly > > and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research > > into > > battery optimization. > > > > Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could > > certainly > > be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are > > poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them. True hybrids > > may > > still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer. > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. > > > > -- Anonymous > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210509/31e7fa91/ attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- Larry Gales -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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