But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat loss in compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode). Bob
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > From the WIKI: > "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best > processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have > an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%" > I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but they think in another > 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s. > > I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of > inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that > idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and > H2 could never be better than some ceiling %. > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to. > > > > Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar? > > Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I > > hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be > > confusing a point. > > > > Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about. > > No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they > > are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed > > better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other > > energy storage mechanism. > > > > Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not > > true. > > > > Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very > > efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency? > > > > Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the > > basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small? > > > > Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk > > about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I > > wish them luck. I own stock in the company. > > > > Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste. > > Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal, > > today. > > > > What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get > > the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any > > decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there > > seems to be a lot of that that you are considering. > > > > BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen > > transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil. > > > > - Mark > > > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > > > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Numbers help. For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three > > > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for > > > a range of 300 miles. Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the > > > general public uses bars. It is always PSI. 700 bar translates to 5 > > > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons. One tank > > > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction. > > > > > > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO > > > included in the Hydrogen. That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell. The > > > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours". > > > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles. YMMV That leaves electrolysis which is > > > very inefficient. > > > > > > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations. > > > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom. If it > > > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build. > > > Tanker trucks are another story. They are capacity limited. > > > > > > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them. > > > Most of what I read is hype. > > > > > > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from 300,000 to 500,000 miles with > > > Musk's goal of 1 million miles. A million miles is 20K miles per year > > > for 50 years. Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack. > > > > > > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92 > > > to 97% of a pack. > > > > > > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet > > > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV. > > > > > > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle > > > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons. I > > > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or > > > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle. > > > > > > > > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be > > made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way. > > >> > > >> - Mark > > >> > > >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > >> > > >>>> On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers > > in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do, > > beside repeat research you've already done. > > >>> Peri > > >>> > > >>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > >>> > > >>> ------ Original Message ------ > > >>> From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]> > > >>> To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion > > List" <[email protected]> > > >>> Sent: 14-Aug-21 07:09:30 > > >>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all > > >>> > > >>>> I think focus on that article was not “green” hydrogen, but “blue” > > hydrogen, made from fossil with carbon sequestered. > > >>>> > > >>>> All I’ll say about blue hydrogen is that I share some of your > > concerns about the ability to really do it. > > >>>> > > >>>> On the green side, I think that your numbers are way off. > > >>>> > > >>>> Do a search for Hydrogen 101 and Jack Brouwer for some interesting > > numbers. And I can tell you that in terms of the economics, at least one > > company that is building production plants as we speak, believes that they > > can produce green hydrogen at a cost competitive with “grey” hydrogen, and > > within a few years, competitive with diesel, which is really what we need > > to compare it with. > > >>>> > > >>>> - Mark > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Address messages to [email protected] > > >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > >>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Address messages to [email protected] > > >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Address messages to [email protected] > > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Address messages to [email protected] > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > > -- > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, > Google Phone and Text > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210815/cc56fd5a/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
