On 03/07/07, Torgny Tholerus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
TT: This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe.
DN: IMO your thought experiment might as well stop right here. No universe
can "look" like anything to anyone except a participant in it - i.e. an
'observer' who is an embedded sub-structure of that universe. The "looking"
that you refer to here is an illusory artefact of syntax - i.e. the relation
is to an imaginative construct which in fact is part of A-Universe. IOW
this sort of 'existence' is a metaphor which is relative to *us*, not the
self-relation of any realisable B-Universe. What you describe as B-Universe
"looking exactly the same" is really an implicit relation to an observer in
*that* universe, and consequently that observer is already accepted as
conscious. Alternatively, it doesn't "look" like anything to anyone, and
hence is by no stretch of the imagination "exactly the same".
TT: Is B-Universe possible?
DN: If you mean could it exist independently of our imagining it in
A-Universe, then yes - as long as we postulate that it exists
self-relatively, as opposed to relative-to-us.
TT: If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer,
if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"?
DN: We cannot interview an object in a self-relative B-Universe, because we
can have no relation to it. If an object in a possible (i.e. self-relative)
B-Universe interviews another object and asks it "Are you conscious", this
equates to "Do you self-relate?", to which the answer would be yes, given
your other assumptions. IOW, the possible B-Universe is in fact a clone of
Notice that we're not concerned with absolute 'qualities' here because these
can only be known to participants. What is relevant is the self-relation
and reflexivity of participants, and realising that there is a language trap
in trying to perform these thought experiments with mental constructs that
allow us the illusion of abstracting 'universes' from their necessarily
> Imagine that we have a second Universe, that looks exactly the same as
> the materialistic parts of our Universe. We may call this second
> Universe B-Universe. (Our Universe is A-Universe.)
> This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe. Where there is a
> hydrogen atom in A-Universe, there will also be a hydrogen atom in
> B-Universe, and everywhere that there is an oxygen atom in A-Universe,
> there will be an oxygen atom i B-universe. The only difference between
> A-Universe and B-Universe is that B-Universe is totally free from
> consciousness, feelings, minds, souls, and all that kind of stuff. The
> only things that exist in B-Universe are atoms reacting with eachother.
> All objects in B-Universe behave in exactly the same way as the objects
> in A-Universe.
> The objects in B-Universe produces the same kind of sounds as we produce
> in A-Universe, and the objects in B-Universe pushes the same buttons on
> their computers as we do in our A-Universe.
> Is B-Universe possible?
> If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer,
> if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"?
> Torgny Tholerus
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