On 03/07/07, Torgny Tholerus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

TT:  This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe.

DN:  IMO your thought experiment might as well stop right here.  No universe
can "look" like anything to anyone except a participant in it - i.e. an
'observer' who is an embedded sub-structure of that universe. The "looking"
that you refer to here is an illusory artefact of syntax - i.e. the relation
is to an imaginative construct which in fact is part of A-Universe.  IOW
this sort of 'existence' is a metaphor which is relative to *us*, not the
self-relation of any realisable B-Universe.  What you describe as B-Universe
"looking exactly the same" is really an implicit relation to an observer in
*that* universe, and consequently that observer is already accepted as
conscious.  Alternatively, it doesn't "look" like anything to anyone, and
hence is by no stretch of the imagination "exactly the same".

TT:  Is B-Universe possible?

DN:  If you mean could it exist independently of our imagining it in
A-Universe, then yes - as long as we postulate that it exists
self-relatively, as opposed to relative-to-us.

TT:  If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer,
if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"?

DN:  We cannot interview an object in a self-relative B-Universe, because we
can have no relation to it.  If an object in a possible (i.e. self-relative)
B-Universe interviews another object and asks it "Are you conscious", this
equates to "Do you self-relate?", to which the answer would be yes, given
your other assumptions. IOW, the possible B-Universe is in fact a clone of

Notice that we're not concerned with absolute 'qualities' here because these
can only be known to participants.  What is relevant is the self-relation
and reflexivity of participants, and realising that there is a language trap
in trying to perform these thought experiments with mental constructs that
allow us the illusion of abstracting 'universes' from their necessarily
participatory contexts.


> Imagine that we have a second Universe, that looks exactly the same as
> the materialistic parts of our Universe.  We may call this second
> Universe B-Universe.  (Our Universe is A-Universe.)
> This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe.  Where there is a
> hydrogen atom in A-Universe, there will also be a hydrogen atom in
> B-Universe, and everywhere that there is an oxygen atom in A-Universe,
> there will be an oxygen atom i B-universe.  The only difference between
> A-Universe and B-Universe is that B-Universe is totally free from
> consciousness, feelings, minds, souls, and all that kind of stuff.  The
> only things that exist in B-Universe are atoms reacting with eachother.
> All objects in B-Universe behave in exactly the same way as the objects
> in A-Universe.
> The objects in B-Universe produces the same kind of sounds as we produce
> in A-Universe, and the objects in B-Universe pushes the same buttons on
> their computers as we do in our A-Universe.
> Questions:
> Is B-Universe possible?
> If we interview an object in B-Universe, what will that object answer,
> if we ask it: "Are you conscious?"?
> --
> Torgny Tholerus
> >

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