On 06/07/07, Torgny Tholerus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No, the GoL-universe will not stop, it will continue for ever. The > rules for this GoL-universe makes it possible to compute all future > situations. It is this that is important. This GoL-universe is not > dependent of the A-Universe. What we see when we look at the Wikipedia > page is just a picture of a part of this GoL-universe.
Torgny, I'm really confused now. In your original post, you postulated: "Imagine that we have a second Universe, that looks exactly the same as the materialistic parts of our Universe. We may call this second Universe B-Universe. (Our Universe is A-Universe.) This B-Universe looks exactly the same as A-Universe. Where there is a hydrogen atom in A-Universe, there will also be a hydrogen atom in B-Universe, and everywhere that there is an oxygen atom in A-Universe, there will be an oxygen atom i B-universe. The only difference between A-Universe and B-Universe is that B-Universe is totally free from consciousness, feelings, minds, souls, and all that kind of stuff. The only things that exist in B-Universe are atoms reacting with eachother. All objects in B-Universe behave in exactly the same way as the objects in A-Universe." Now, surely you're not claiming that GoL is fully equivalent to your specification for the B-Universe? 'GoL' may exist in the plenitude, but it doesn't look "exactly the same" as the A-Universe. And if it should turn out to be capable of evolving to this stage, it will by then have acquired the full characteristics of self-relativity, just like the A-Universe. This list is devoted to the idea that "all possible universes exist". There is a trap contained in this proposition. You, I think, read this as "any describable state of affairs", but what is describable may not be possible, and what is not possible cannot exist. GoL is in fact possible in this sense, as you haven't postulated any self-contradictory properties for it. But B-Universe? Sure, you can describe a 'universe' that looks "exactly the same" but doesn't have "all that kind of stuff". But this comes from imagining "all that kind of stuff" as a sort of optional extra that you can decide not to pay for but still retain a 'possible' universe. But the error is that there is no such "stuff" to dispense with: all the characteristics of the A-Universe, whether 'mental' or 'physical', arise necessarily from self-relativity (i.e. independent existence). The 'split personality' of the B-Universe is therefore self-contradictory. As such, it can't exist self-relatively, and consequently exists only relative to the A-Universe, in the form of a misconception. David > > David Nyman skrev: > > You're right, we must distinguish zombies. The kind I have in mind > > are the kind that Torgny proposes, where 'everything is the same' as > > for a human, except that 'there's nothing it is like' to be such a > > person. My key point is that this must become incoherent in the face > > of self-relativity. My reasoning is that a claim for the 'existence' > > of something like Torgny's B-Universe is implicitly a claim for > > self-relative existence: i.e. independent of other causality, like the > > One. When Torgny proposed the Game of Life as an example of 'another > > universe', I pointed out that GoL clearly doesn't possess independent > > existence: it's just a part of the A-Universe. > It is intresting to study the GoL-universe we can see on the Wikipedia > page. What will happen if we stop the program that shows this > GoL-universe? Will the GoL-universe stop to exist then? > > No, the GoL-universe will not stop, it will continue for ever. The > rules for this GoL-universe makes it possible to compute all future > situations. It is this that is important. This GoL-universe is not > dependent of the A-Universe. What we see when we look at the Wikipedia > page is just a picture of a part of this GoL-universe. > > -- > Torgny Tholerus > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---