On 27/12/2008, at 7:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> nd sometimes, even that is not enough, and you have to climb on the
> higher infinities. I think Kim was asking for an example of well-
> defined notions which are not effective. The existence of such non
> effective objects is not obvious at all for non mathematicians.
> Your interpretation was correct too given that Kim question was
> ambiguous.

I wanted to know if you can have:

1. A system with a defined set of rules but no definite description   
(an electron?)


2. A system with a definite description but no rules governing it  (???)

Based on Abram's original distinction, as a way of separating the two  
types of machine that Günther specified.

My intuition says you can have 1 but maybe not 2. I am struggling here  
maybe badly...

Most systems of course have both. Arithmetical reality surely has  
rules but I'm wondering about the description?

Maybe it is the candidate as Bruno suggests?


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