On 10 Dec 2009, at 03:23, benjayk wrote:
> For me numbers don't make independent sense of the appearance (!) of
> too. Since I cannot conceive of any meaning of the number 2 without
> reffering to some "real" (in the sense of every day usage) object.
Then all physical theories are circular, and explains nothing. All
theories in physics presuppose arithmetical truth (and even analytical
truth, but this is just to simplify the derivations). I am aware that
Hartree Field pretends otherwise, but he is using the numbers
Of course, the human conception of the numbers depends on the human
conception of his neighborhood and life, but when searching a TOE we
have to agree on the simplest objects (ontology) from which we derive
the others (phenomenology).
> So numbers don't give rise to arithmetical truth,
You need addition, multiplication and classical logic.
> but truth gives rise to
> (expresses as) numbers.
Which truth. What do you mean by 'truth' here?
> Maybe "what really exists" is not a meaningful thing to ask in first
> because if something "really" exists, it certainly cannot be
> expressed with
Why? This is like asserting there is no TOE, before searching. But
elementary arithmetics does explain both consciousness, including its
non definability, and matter, including both its computational and non
If you have a better explanation, I can listen, but why not study the
> So why aks a question that can't be answered with words at all?
It is up to you to show the question cannot answered at all, and for
this you need a theory.
> Probably we generally should take words less serious (especially with
> regards to fundamental questions) and expect no satisfying answers
This is giving up research. Of course, you can always do that.
Nevertheless, to invoke a vague theory or philosophy to dismiss
automatically the theories bring by others will not help to progress.
This is what is done by most "confessional religion" since the
scientific attitude has been abandoned in theology/fundamental research.
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