On 15 Nov 2010, at 20:24, 1Z wrote:




On Nov 14, 11:04 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 14 Nov 2010, at 19:39, 1Z wrote:





On Nov 11, 12:54 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 3:53 PM, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:40 am, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:
If an entity exists in a universe that is subject to unchanging
causal
laws, how can it have justified true beliefs (a.k.a. knowledge)
either?

If the entity's beliefs are the result of some more fundamental
underlying process, then those beliefs aren't held for reasons of
logic or rationality.

That doesn't follow.

It follows by definition.

1.  IF a universe governed by causal laws -

2.  THEN everything that occurs within that universe is a result of
those laws acting on the universe's state.  Every change of state
happens according to some law.

3. The entity's holding of some belief occurs within that universe.

4.  Therefore the entity's holding of some belief (whether rational
*or* irrational) is a result of causal laws acting on the entity's
state, and nothing else.

What else could account for the entity's holding of some particular
belief?

"Logical" and "rational" are adjectives.  You're confusing
descriptive
labels with causal forces.

Your argument still doesn't work. You re tacitly assuming that
being the result of causal laws is exclusive of being the result
of logic/.reason. But that is , to say the least,  not obvioius.
OTOH, it *is* obvious that being the result of causal
laws is exclusive of being freely chosen.

? Are you saying that it is obvious that compatibilism is false?

It is obvious that if there is strict causal determinism, the will is
not
free from strict causal determinism.

It is not obvious for me (and the many compatibilists).
Some people can premeditate crime, and this independently of the fact that some genius in psychology, or God, could have predict their act.




Either you throw the notion of person, or you ask for a 'magical'
notion of person.

Or there is not strict causal determinism

I don't see how low level indeterminacy (of any sort) could help in bringing free-will. On the contrary free-will is a form of partial (from the point of view of the actor) self-determination.





Free will is the free choice between 2+2=4,and 2+2=5.

A FW that could choose anything that is not logically impossible
would be physically miraculous.

?


A FW that was constrained always to be strictly logical would not
be all that free.

This depends on the level of description.
The consistency of Peano Arithmetic with lies (Bf) is already a theorem of Peano Arithmetic, and there are infinities of modal logics given different sense to logical, so "strictly logical" has not so much meaning to me. Logic is classical logic + an infinities of non classical logics. Classical logic + arithmetic entails the existence of many illogical things, even weird dreams if you assume mechanism. Free will is the high level cognitive facility which makes possible for a person to choose a way to satisfy herself in the knowledge/ belief of many alternative ways. It usually asks for (more) freedom.

Bruno





Yes. It might even be statistically justified, but if it applies to
reality, double checking is not enough to convince of truth, there is
a need of an infinite-checking which can be justified for first person
only. But science, reason, public demonstrations don't need that
infinite checking, and your answer goes through (if I get it correctly).


I think I followed that...no amount of checking
suffices for certainty, but any finite amount is unmiraculous

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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