On 01 Jul 2011, at 10:06, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:

basically you guys don't know what your talking about, especially Bruno with his dream-seed "theology"....

You might try to be more specific. Have you read the UD Argument? If you believe there is flaw, you might try to present it. Bruno

but the main purpose this group and these thinkers serve, is to awaken us from our dogmatic slumber.... the thinking of this group is exceptionally skilled at that.... it is a perpetual reawakening from your dogmatic slumber. On Jul 1, 12:32 am, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:indeed it is... I am saying that most everythign according to us isananthropomorphization... we, and by extensasicaion, most everything,by virtue ofus, is an anthropomorphization...but more importantly I want to say: so you believe that theseuniversalnumbers have an existence in and of themselves and are beingapprehended...not necessarily appreheneded or ascertained as such, nor intheory.... butare you asserting that beings in themselves in the abstract andtheologicalsense are being reflected to your thought in shadow form?On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:On 01 Jul 2011, at 08:36, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:is not any meta-phenomenological 'object', including the 'self',necessarily the construct of a third-person point of view...There is the 3-self. That is what you bet being your body, or whatyou needto remain alive/conscious.Then there is the 1-self, you as conscious person. The mind bodyproblem isthe problem of relating those two things. It is not yet solved,but I thinksome progress have perhaps been done.anessentially anthropomorphic third-person perception without anyobjective independent existence, or any determination assuch..... andis not the negation of such an assertion assumed to be so and predicated on your human-being-ness and indirection... therefore proving the fact that "man is the measure of all things",IF we are machine, then the universal numbers (in the sense oftheoreticalcomputer science) are better candidate for being the measure ofall things.They create the coupling consciousness/realties.It is an open question if they dreams/computations gluesufficiently wellto define physical realities.and allthings are relative to himself and have the status of third-person entities and nothing more except as projected by man.Why "by man"? Is that not an anthropomorphism?BrunoOn Jun 4, 1:09 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 04 Jun 2011, at 19:06, Rex Allen wrote:On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jason Resch<jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:One thing I thought of recently which is a good way of showinghowcomputation occurs due to the objective truth or falsehood of mathematical propositions is as follows:Most would agree that a statement such as "8 is composite" has aneternal objective truth.Assuming certain of axioms and rules of inference, sure.But everyone agree on the axioms of arithmetic. And we couldtake anyuniversal (in the Turing sense) system instead. The physical lawscannot depend on the choice of the "universal base". Lat uscontinuewith (N, +, *), because it is taught in high school.But isn't that true of nearly anything? How many axiomaticsystemsare there?Likewise the statement: the Nth fibbinacci number is X.Has an objective truth for any integer N no matter how large. Let's say N=10 and X = 55. The truth of this depends on the recursive definition of the fibbinacci sequence, where future states depend on prior states, and istherefore a kind if computation. Since N may be infinitelylarge,then in asense this mathematical computation proceeds forever.Likewise onemight say that chaitin's constant = Y has some objective mathematical truth. Forchaintons constant to have an objective value, the executionof allprograms must occur.Simple recursive relations can lead to exraordinary complexity,consider theuniverse of the Mandelbrot set implied by the simple relationZ(n+1)= Z(n)^2 + C. Other recursive formulae may result in the evolution of structures such as our universe or the computation of your mind.Is extraordinary complexity required for the manifestation of"mind"?If so, why?Is it that these recursive relations cause our experience, orare justa way of thinking about our experience?Is it:Recursive relations cause thought.OR:Recursion is just a label that we apply to some of ourimplicationalbeliefs.I think you are confusing computability, which is absolute(assumingChurch thesis), and provability, which is always relative totheories,machines, entities, etc.Jason is right, computation occurs in "arithmetical platonia",even ina tiny part of it actually, independently of us. This tiny part isassumed in the rest of science, and comp makes it necessarilyenough(by taking seriously the first and third person distinction).BrunoThe latter seems more plausible to me.Rex--You received this message because you are subscribed to theGroups "Everything List" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.**com<everything-list@googlegroups.com>. To unsubscribe from this group, send email toeverything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en>.http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>--You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups"Everything List" group.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.**com<everything-list@googlegroups.com>. 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