On 01 Jul 2011, at 10:06, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
basically you guys don't know what your talking about, especially
Bruno with his dream-seed "theology"....
You might try to be more specific. Have you read the UD Argument?
If you believe there is flaw, you might try to present it.
Bruno
but the main purpose this
group and these thinkers serve, is to awaken us from our dogmatic
slumber.... the thinking of this group is exceptionally skilled at
that.... it is a perpetual reawakening from your dogmatic slumber.
On Jul 1, 12:32 am, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
indeed it is... I am saying that most everythign according to us is
an
anthropomorphization... we, and by extensasicaion, most everything,
by virtue of
us, is an anthropomorphization...
but more importantly I want to say: so you believe that these
universal
numbers have an existence in and of themselves and are being
apprehended...
not necessarily appreheneded or ascertained as such, nor in
theory.... but
are you asserting that beings in themselves in the abstract and
theological
sense are being reflected to your thought in shadow form?
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 01 Jul 2011, at 08:36, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
is not any meta-phenomenological 'object', including the 'self',
necessarily the construct of a third-person point of view...
There is the 3-self. That is what you bet being your body, or what
you need
to remain alive/conscious.
Then there is the 1-self, you as conscious person. The mind body
problem is
the problem of relating those two things. It is not yet solved,
but I think
some progress have perhaps been done.
an
essentially anthropomorphic third-person perception without any
objective independent existence, or any determination as
such..... and
is not the negation of such an assertion assumed to be so and
predicated on your human-being-ness and indirection... therefore
proving the fact that "man is the measure of all things",
IF we are machine, then the universal numbers (in the sense of
theoretical
computer science) are better candidate for being the measure of
all things.
They create the coupling consciousness/realties.
It is an open question if they dreams/computations glue
sufficiently well
to define physical realities.
and all
things are relative to himself and have the status of third-person
entities and nothing more except as projected by man.
Why "by man"? Is that not an anthropomorphism?
Bruno
On Jun 4, 1:09 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 04 Jun 2011, at 19:06, Rex Allen wrote:
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jason Resch
<jasonre...@gmail.com>
wrote:
One thing I thought of recently which is a good way of showing
how
computation occurs due to the objective truth or falsehood of
mathematical
propositions is as follows:
Most would agree that a statement such as "8 is composite" has an
eternal
objective truth.
Assuming certain of axioms and rules of inference, sure.
But everyone agree on the axioms of arithmetic. And we could
take any
universal (in the Turing sense) system instead. The physical laws
cannot depend on the choice of the "universal base". Lat us
continue
with (N, +, *), because it is taught in high school.
But isn't that true of nearly anything? How many axiomatic
systems
are there?
Likewise the statement: the Nth fibbinacci number is X.
Has an objective truth for any integer N no matter how large.
Let's say
N=10 and X = 55. The truth of this depends on the recursive
definition of
the fibbinacci sequence, where future states depend on prior
states, and is
therefore a kind if computation. Since N may be infinitely
large,
then in a
sense this mathematical computation proceeds forever.
Likewise one
might
say that chaitin's constant = Y has some objective mathematical
truth. For
chaintons constant to have an objective value, the execution
of all
programs
must occur.
Simple recursive relations can lead to exraordinary complexity,
consider the
universe of the Mandelbrot set implied by the simple relation
Z(n
+1)= Z(n)^2
+ C. Other recursive formulae may result in the evolution of
structures
such as our universe or the computation of your mind.
Is extraordinary complexity required for the manifestation of
"mind"?
If so, why?
Is it that these recursive relations cause our experience, or
are just
a way of thinking about our experience?
Is it:
Recursive relations cause thought.
OR:
Recursion is just a label that we apply to some of our
implicational
beliefs.
I think you are confusing computability, which is absolute
(assuming
Church thesis), and provability, which is always relative to
theories,
machines, entities, etc.
Jason is right, computation occurs in "arithmetical platonia",
even in
a tiny part of it actually, independently of us. This tiny part is
assumed in the rest of science, and comp makes it necessarily
enough
(by taking seriously the first and third person distinction).
Bruno
The latter seems more plausible to me.
Rex
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