On Thu, Jan 19, 2012  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

" How do you know that rocks fail the Turing Test?

That question most certainly does not pass the Turing Test and for the same
reason that the ancient "ELIZA" psychiatry program that you mentioned did
not; it very soon became obvious how it worked, it took the input "X" and
feed it back in a very limited number of ways, such as "tell me more about
X" or "have you always felt X" or "how do you know X". Such simple behavior
is not a sign of intelligence and will not fool anybody for long. Another
example of this sort is:

" Why don't you think I am locked up in a mental institution?"

If I've made a error about that I apologize.

> " Have you administered such a test to rocks yourself or heard of anyone
> ever actually doing
> that? I understand what you mean, but it's sophistry."

It's not sophistry to ask yourself why you believe what you believe. I
agree that the idea that rocks are conscious is ridiculous but unlike you I
have asked myself exactly why it's ridiculous and I have a answer; it's
ridiculous because no rock I have ever observed, and I've seen quite a few,
behaves as if it's intelligent.

"It's not deterministic if we are the ones doing the determining."

Then you did it because you wanted to do it and that want is a perfectly
legitimate reason. And you wanted to do it because that's the way your
brain is wired, and there is a reason your brain is wired that way
(heredity and environment)  OR there is no reason your brain is wired that

Of my own free will, I consciously decide to go to a restaurant.
Because I want to.
Why ?
Because I want to eat.
Because I'm hungry?
Why ?
Because lack of food triggered nerve impulses in my stomach, my brain
interpreted these signals as pain, I can only stand so much before I try to
stop it.
Because I don't like pain.
Because that's the way my brain is constructed.
Because my body  and the hardware of my brain were made from the
information in my genetic code ( lets see, 6 billion base pairs 2 bits per
base pair 8 bits per byte that comes out to about 1.5 gig )  the
programming of my brain came from the environment, add a little quantum
randomness perhaps and of my own free will I consciously decide to go to a

"If you define the universe as deterministic from the beginning, then [...]"

I most certainly do not! We know the universe is NOT deterministic but we
also know that everything, absolutely positively everything, happens for a
reason OR it does not happen for a reason.

"If you don't force the universe into a category like that, then you can
> see the wide spectrum of variation between absolute determinism and
> libertarian free will."

I know what the ASCII string " libertarian" means, in fact I am one. I
think that in general people should be allowed to do what they want to do
more often than they are allowed today; so I know what "will" means but I
don't know what the ASCII string "free will" means and neither do you.

"Evolution has nothing to say about consciousness."

Don't be ridiculous. You are conscious (I'm pretty sure) and Evolution
produced you, neither you or anybody else has suggested a way it could
select for such a thing directly so consciousness MUST be a byproduct of
something else that it CAN select for. Now maybe that something else is the
big toe on your left foot and only people with a toe the size and shape as
yours is conscious, but I think it's far more likely that the something
else is intelligence.

And yes I know, you will say the idea that your big toe is related to
consciousness is ridiculous as indeed it is, but asking yourself why it is
ridiculous is far from ridiculous.

"Why does size decrease magnificence?

Is this question really necessary? Decrease Shakespeare's life work until
all you have is the letter "P",  the letter P is not a work of genius and
it is not magnificence. I confess that sometimes I get the feeling that I'm
debating with ELIZA.

"Huh? because you think that you can see intelligence and not
> consciousness"

Is that point even debatable?

"that means that intelligence creates consciousness?"


"Does that mean that ultraviolet light creates color too?"


" But you don't know that consciousness is the prerequisite for each and
> every incidence of intelligence, now do you?"

I've asked this before but you did not answer, we have never met so do you
think I'm conscious?

"Evolution does not select for intelligence. It selects for survival and
> reproduction alone."

Yes, and everything else being equal a intelligent animal will survive
better and have more offspring than a stupid one, but Evolution does not
give a damn if its conscious or not.

  John K Clark

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