On 6/2/2012 11:45 AM, John Mikes wrote:
Did ANYBODY so far - among those ~100(+?) posts (so far erased in this discussion) *I D
E N T I F Y* */_free will_/*?
I've tried to identify two meanings: One, which I consider unproblematic, is the social
and legal attribute of decisions which are not coerced. The other is the folk meaning
attributing decisions to a spirit or soul which can initiate physical events but which is
independent of all prior physical events.
Brent
I red about a /_'relatively'_/ free will, (= among (given) choices) as well as 'totally
freely chosen' decisions etc. etc. - none of them too impressive.
I tried to substantiate several time that we live in a steadily evolving state of
cognition and consider (observe?) as of yesterday more than earlier, consequently (by
induction) there is more to the "world" than our today-s position. Whatever we know -
either consciously, or not knowingly: subconsciously adds to our decision making and by
tomorrow we may be able to draw different conclusions.
(When I wrote my reply up to this point, my mailbox induced Brian's post:)
-------------------------------
/_"*The capacity*_ (which can be defined) *_of an agent_* (which can be defined) *_to be
able_* (which can be defined) *_to choose_* (which can be defined) *_when_* (which can
be defined) *_presented_* (which can be defined) *_with a choice_* (which can be
defined).//Certainly not meaningless. - Brian Tenneson"/
/---------------------------------------------------/
(emphasis of the ID words by me) - and I reflect:
It certainly IS not meaningless and IS an identification, however not of a *_FREE_*
will. It is a decision between "given" choices. "Tomorrow" more info may be given to us
and our today's choice may be overridden.
What I consider a *_"free will"_* is independent of the 'choices' we *_G E T_* and is
solely formatted by our (pesonal? inside?) mindset (call it will?). We, however, are
part of a more extended (expanded?) world, I like to call it 'Everything' (an infinite
complexity of so far(?) unknowable content) and all of its influences (may) contribute
to our 'decisionmaking' although we may not know about either the nature of most of
those influences, nor that we ARE responding to them.
Brent Meeker (if it really came from YOUR post <ha ha>):
*/" Can existing practice be justified on a purely utilitarian basis?" /*
Of course it can, in the 'purely utilitarian sense'. Just do not mix such into a
theoretical aspect and don't call it (rational?) truth.
(Let me stay out of discussing Max Velman's position. I appreciate his scientific base -
however different from my agnostic views).
John M
*//*
*
//*
On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 1:53 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 01.06.2012 20:48 meekerdb said the following:
On 6/1/2012 8:59 AM, John Clark wrote:
Believers in 'contra causal free will' suppose that it did not,
that
my 'soul' or 'spirit' initiated the physical process without any
determinative physical antecedent.
A belief that was enormously popular during the dark ages and led
to a thousand years of philosophical dead ends; not surprising
really, confusion is inevitable if you insist on trying to make
sense out of gibberish.
So you think the existence of soul or spirit is not just false but
incomprehensible. I disagree since there are experiments (e.g.
healing prayer, NDE tests) that could have provided evidence for
these extra-physical phenomena. By their null result they provide
evidence against them. But on your view there cannot be evidence for
or against because the concept cannot be given any meaning, much less
an operational meaning that can be tested.
From Understanding Consciousness by Max Velmans:
p. 300 "To make matters worse, there are four distinct ways in which
body/brain and
mind/consciousness might in principle, enter into casual relationship.
There might
be physical causes of physical states, physical causes of mental states,
mental
causes of mental states, and mental causes of physical states. Establishing
which
forms of causation are effective in practice has clear implication for
understanding
the aetiology and proper treatment of illness and disease.
Within conventional medicine, physical -> physical is taken for granted.
Consequently, the proper treatment for physical disorders is assumed to be
some from
of physical intervention. Psychiatry takes the efficacy of physical ->
mental
causation for granted, along with the assumption that the proper treatment
for
psychological disorders may involve psychoactive drugs, neurosurgery and so
on. Many
forms of psychotherapy take mental -> mental causation for granted, and
assume that
psychological disorders can be alleviated by means of 'talking cures',
guided
imagery, hypnosis and other form of mental intervention. Psychosomatic
medicine
assumes that mental -> physical causation can be effective
('psychogenesis').
Consequently, under some circumstances, a physical disorder (for example,
hysterical
paralysis) may require a mental (psychotherapeutic) intervention. Given the
extensive evidence for all these causal interactions (cf. Velmans, 1996a),
how we to
make sense of them?"
Velmans, M. 1996a: The Science of Consciousness: Psychological,
Neuropsychological
and Clinical Reviews, London: Routledge.
Evgenii
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