On 05 Jul 2012, at 05:16, Stephen P. King wrote:


It seems obvious that "what is true", as referenced below, is some kind of collection and that it's labeling can easily be seen to not be fixed a priori. We might think of it of a Kripke frame and the models have forced truths. The thing here is that we have to be careful that we don't box ourselves into thinking that the totality of all that exists is finite or even only countably infinite.

If we are machine then the cardinality of "reality" is at least countably infinite and it is absolutely undecidable if there is anything more.

You might try to imagine an experimental set-up to test if the cardinal of "reality" (whatever ontology) is bigger than aleph_zero. It will succumbs to the dream argument (assuming comp).

But that countable reality, as seen from inside, can also be proved to be bigger than anything nameable. But that reality is epistemological. It does not need to be reified (put in an ontology).


On 7/4/2012 2:05 PM, Brian Tenneson wrote:
The thread is about the possibility of an omnipotent being being able to manipulate what is true.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy <multiplecit...@gmail.com > wrote:
Hello Everythinglisters,

First post here, and seems fun to get lost reading the discussions from time to time, so here somebody contributing with a more musical tendency.

It's funny how this game keeps cropping up where people want to do stuff like: 1 + 1 = 11

If people are sincere about pulling whatever sums they feel like with personal justification, then we might as well say 1 + 1 = 0, with a kind of zen logic, where everything = nothing as a fancy justification. And anybody still willing to assert this could post their bank account details and pin numbers and be freed from arithmetic dictatorship by having their account cleaned out by other everything listers that DO believe in sums, successors etc. as 0 = whatever they want, and the sum of their balance doesn't really matter, as it's only some personal belief shared by a few control freaks.

Guitar and composition imho, have arithmetic overlap, albeit in a less than total sense, which is why I won't have to post my details here :)

Looking forward to contributing from time to time.

On Saturday, June 30, 2012 12:09:53 AM UTC+2, JohnM wrote:
Bruno asked:
  .....     Is that an absolute truth?

By no means. It is a word-flower, a semantic hint, something in MY agnosticism and I feel like a semantic messenger only. I accept better expressions.
(Except for "absolute truth" - ha ha).
And Teilhard was a great master of words.
John M

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 29 Jun 2012, at 16:21, John Mikes wrote:

Brent, thanks for the appreciation!

My point was simply that anybody's 'truth' is conditioned.
We have no (approvable?) authority for an ABSOLUTE truth. Whatever "WE" accept is "human".

Is that an absolute truth?

In my humble opinion, "WE = human" seems to me quite relative. When I listen to the jumping spiders or the Löbian machines, most seems to disagree.


We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
(de Chardin).

What is Mother Nature accepting?

John M

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 4:09 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 6/28/2012 12:46 PM, John Mikes wrote:
I am the 3rd kind of the two: think not in binary, just in plain peasant logic, when 1 and 1 make 11, nothing more.
So Bruno's "absolute truth" may have even more relatives.

Or less facetiously, (The father of Kirsten)+(The father of Gennifer)=(One, me) and (one raindrop)+(one raindrop)=(one raindrop). So whether successor(x)=(x+1) depends on the applicability of arithmetic to your model.




"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
~ Francis Bacon

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