On 08 Aug 2012, at 20:28, meekerdb wrote:

On 8/8/2012 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 07 Aug 2012, at 17:24, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012  Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

No, I find that normal. Atheism needs a precise notion of God to make, but all serious theologian and mystics tend to think that God, like truth or consciousness does not admit a simple definition, making atheism a very vague position, unless it means only I don't believe in the literalist abramanic definition of God. In which case 99% of the mundial population is atheist, and that makes the notion quite trivial.

> I don't believe in any literal definition, of God, universe, whole, etc.

If that's what you believe, or rather what you don't believe, then why are you unable to utter the simple crystal clear declarative sentence "I am a atheist" ? Why all the gobbledegook?

Because I am not an atheist. I am fascinated by most discourses by many theologians and mystics belonging to a wide variety of traditions. I have studied classical chinese to be sure I did not misinterpret the taoists, which have been my favorite for a long time. I have read Plato and Plotinus. I am a neoplatonist believer, if you want, and as far as I can conceive that comp is correct, I am a Pythagorean.

But you're not a theist

Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.[1]

So I am a theist.

In a more specific sense, theism is a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.[2] [3] [4]

So I am even more a theist, as I am monist (assuming comp, etc.).

Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism.

I am probably much more taoist and buddhist, and sufi and cabbalist, and close to the Christian mystics. The others, like a part of the scientists today, bear too much on argument from authority and politics. They have willingly discourage the scientific attitude. You can find youtube video showing how mystics are still demonized by the Islamic and Christians mainstream. In fact it is like health politics, people prefer argument from authority in place of argument from observation and reflexion.

The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.[5]

Which confirms what I just said.

- hence John's question.

Hence my conclusion. Atheists defend the conception of God coming from the political. Not from spiritual inquiry and scientific research, which is traditionally demonized by those who use God as an argument from authority.

Your quote made my point even clearer.



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