Hi Bruno Marchal 

Intelligence is that which purposely propels living objects into the future 
based on final goals.

Dead objects must obey the deterministic physics of efficient (previous) cause.


Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/18/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything 
could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-18, 07:01:18
Subject: Re: The two requirements of life




On 17 Aug 2012, at 22:57, Roger wrote:







I donb't seem to be able to convince Stanley Salthe of this, but
I think that life must have two irreplaceable qualities:

1) Autonomous intelligence,  that intelligence of nature found in our 
fine-tuned world.


2) What amounts to the same thing, the freedom to pick and choose - usually 
what one desires.
    (self-determination, not exactly free will).



I am OK with you. Unless you meant this in some explicit non-comp perspective, 
'course.


Bruno





 Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/17/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything 
could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-16, 12:09:48
Subject: Re: Is life computable ?




On 16 Aug 2012, at 16:47, Roger wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal 

Has anybody ever provided a proof that life is a computable entity ?


Nobody agrees on what life is. 
If it is material, then life is not emulable. 
If it is a more abstract information exchange, then it might be.


Keep in mind that, contrarily to a widespread belief, comp makes consciousness 
and matter not being emulable by a computer. Indeed, consciousness and matter 
are based on the statistics on all computations going through my actual state, 
and that is a complex infinite set, which can not even be described in any 
finite way.


"Life" is a fuzzy notion, so it is hard to answer precisely. I usually define 
it by self-reproduction, and in that sense, life is easy to emulate, unlike 
consciousness. But if you attach consciousness to the notion of life, then the 
answer in the comp theory is that life is in platonia/God/arithmetical truth, 
not on earth, and we cannot emulate it. We can still accept an artificial 
brain, as they might be a level where the emulation of it will make it possible 
for my consciousness (in Platonia) to manifest itself relatively to you. 


With comp, the mind body relation is not the one we usually believe in. We can, 
rather conventionally, ascribe a mind to a body, but we cannot ascribe a body 
to a mind: only an infinity of bodies.


With comp, my consciousness is in platonia, and manifests itself in infinities 
of "incarnation", that is local implementation relatively to stabilizing 
universal number/machine, if they exist. To be sure, such existence remains to 
be proved, but evidences already exists and are rather strong, imo.


Bruno










Roger , rclo...@verizon.net
8/16/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything 
could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-15, 04:44:09
Subject: Re: Why AI is impossible




On 14 Aug 2012, at 20:16, William R. Buckley wrote:


John:
Regardless of your dislike for the term omniscience versus universality, the 
Turing machine
can compute all computable computations, and this simply by virtue of its 
construction.


It is deeper than that. It is in virtue of the fact that the set of computable 
functions, unlike all other sets in math, is closed for the diagonalization, 
and the price for this is incompleteness. It is not trivial, and makes 
computational universality rather exceptional and unexpected. The discovery of 
the universal machine is a very big discovery, of the type: it changes 
everything we knew. I think.
For beliefs, knowledge, proofs, definability, etc. This never happens, and the 
corresponding formal systems can always been extended.


Bruno














wrb
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:39 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Why AI is impossible
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:09 PM, William R. Buckley <bill.buck...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 > Consider that the Turing machine is computational omniscient[...]

Turing's entire reason for inventing what we now call a Turing Machine was to 
prove that computational omniscience is NOT possible. He rigorously proved that 
no Turing Machine, that is to say no computer, can determine in advance if any 
given computer program will eventually stop. 
   
For example, it would be very easy to write a program to look for the first 
even number greater than 2 that is not the sum of two prime numbers and then 
stop. But will the machine ever stop? The Turing Machine doesn't know, I don't 
know, you don't know, nobody knows. Maybe it will stop in the next  5 seconds, 
maybe it will stop in 5 billion years, maybe it will never stop. If you want to 
know what the machine will do you just have to watch it and see, and even the 
machine doesn't know what it will do until it does it.

  John K Clark



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