On 05 Oct 2012, at 11:04, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

Dear john:

2012/10/4 John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> Wrote:

>> Mother Nature (Evolution) is a slow and stupid tinkerer, it had over 3 billion years to work on the problem but it couldn't even come up with a macroscopic part that could rotate in 360 degrees!

> First of all, 360 degrees rotation is present in the flagela of the bacteria, invented about 3800 million years ago

I know, that's why I said "macroscopic". It's easy to make if the wheel is microscopic because nutriments can just diffuse in and waste products diffuse out; but as parts get bigger the volume increases by the cube of the radius but the surface area only increases by the square, so when things get big diffusion just isn't good enough. Evolution never figured out how to do better and make a wheel large enough to see, but people did.

I explained in a post above why evolution does not select weels. An autonomous living being must be topologically connected, and weels are not. This is a neat consequence of the need of repairability. No autonomous robot with weels can work for long time without supoort.. This is explained in detail somewhere above.

> under intense comet bombardement. try to do it yourself in the same conditions

Oh I think if I tried real hard I could figure out how to make a wheel that you didn't need a electron microscope to see, particularly if you gave me 3.8 billion years to work on the problem. But the task stumped Evolution.


> If there is no weel in natural evolution is because legs are far superior.

Claiming that nature could find no use for a macroscopic part that could move in 360 degrees, a part like a neck or a shoulder or a wrist or a ball bearing, is simply not credible. And I have no doubt that a supersonic bird or a propeller driven whale or a fire breathing lizard or a nuclear powered cow could successfully fill environmental niches, but making such a thing was just too hard for random mutation and natural selection to do.

Electron are wheels. Rolling pebbles are wheel. Planets are wheels. Solar systems are wheels, galaxies are wheels. Unitary transformations are abstract wheels.

Some plants in the desert, when they dried, transforms themselves into wheels, and roll with the wind, to spread the seeds.

It is not reason which invented the wheels, it is reason which get inspired by the nature's many wheels and circles (e^ix).

Also, evolution uses reasons, all the time, and reason(s) already exist(s) completely in arithmetic. It is the Noùs, divided in his terrestrial part and divine parts (G and G*).

With comp there is still a danger to say that evolution is "superior" to (human) reason: the computationalist will retort that addition and multiplication of integers is "superior" to evolution.

Bruno






> The claim of superiority of reason over nature is the last vestige of unjustified antropocentrism

Anthropomorphism is a very useful tool but like any tool it can be misused; not all anthropomorphisms are unjustified.


> in its most dangerous form: Pride and self worship.

Guilty as charged, I'm a big fan of pride and self worship, it may be a bit dangerous but is sure beats the hell out of worshiping God.

you at least agree that is dangerous. Beware of all these self-help books. My theory is that self-steem, like suicide and the white of the eyes are social adaptations. No other animal has the white of the eyes. Thanks to it, other people can monitor very well your eye movements, so they can detect your lies, deceptions, but the others can trust you, because you bring them a mechanism for mind reading. In the overall, the social group fitness is inproved.

Thats why sunglasses make people to look untrusty and menacing!!!

I left to you to elaborate the conjecture of why self-steem and suicide are social adaptations.

These social level adaptation may not be good for each one as individuals, but are good for the society. No society, no you. Therefore in the middle-long term, these things are good for you and your descendants.


> evolution works simultaneously with infinite variables

Evolution does not work in the rarefied realm of pure mathematics it works in the physical world, and as near as we can tell in physics there is not a infinite number of anything.

Evolution works with the computer of all reality, that is at the same time its own game scenario. It is massivelly parallel. It has the maximum paralellism that may be achieved: a computer for each element in the game.

> we NEVER are sure of knowing in FULL the reasons behind an evolutionary design

True, but we don't need to know all the reasons to make something better; we don't know all the factors than caused bone to have the exact composition that it does, but a human made titanium girder is a hell of a lot stronger than any bone.


> That gives evolutionary design an appearance of mess poor design

It certainly does!


> This is NOT the case.

Baloney. Evolution has no need to be perfect because an organism need not be perfect, it just needs to be a little better than the competition. Just look at the cells of the retina of the eye of any vertebrate animal, the blood vessels that feed those cells and the nerves that communicate with them aren’t in the back of the eye as would be logical but at the front, so light must pass through them before the light hits the light sensitive cells, this makes vision less sharp than it would otherwise be and creates a blind spot right in the middle of the visual field. No amount of spin can turn this dopey mess into a good design, a human engineer would have to be drunk to come up with a hodgepodge like that.

I explained that before , in detail, why this is so. This desing is better because it permits the eye to rotate. Moreover, the reverse position of a light detector is in order to avoid a twitst on every nerve, A reversed detector still produces an image of a single point, not a blurred image. Please go back and read the extense discussion about this point.

> If evolution and reason collide, the prudent is to consider that the reason don´t know enough.

That's not being prudent that's just making lame excuses for Evolution. In the case of invertebrates nature got it right and so in the eye of a squid it put the blood vessels and nerves in the back of the eye as any idiot can see where they belong, but it's far too late for Evolution to give that improvement to vertebrates because it would have to go backwards and start over, and with Evolution every change must confer a immediate advantage; Evolution can never admit that it made a mistake in the past but must always blindly march forward, a human designer can swallow his pride junk his old design an create a new and better standard.

 read above

> natural evolution does not start from scratch it has to modify previous designsz

Exactly, and that is a huge disadvantage, Evolution can't erase anything it can only add new crap on top of the old crap because every change must confer a immediate advantage. Consider the task of changing the tire on a car and imagine if every single part of the task no matter how small, every movement of a bolt every adjustment of both the flat and the good tire, must confer a IMMEDIATE advantage to the operation of the car. You'd never get the tire changed!

Don´t loose the perspective: evolution does not work by modofying the best design every time. tha´ts wrong. It also work with suboptimal alternatives and with most other variants. He works with all variations that the genetic code can produce. It has you, but also it has bacterias to build from.

> while reason without the help of tradiction, operates from scratch.

Yes, so a human can jump directly from the tangled mess of DOS to a clean streamlined operating system like LINUX, but Evolution can only add even more tangled bells and whistles to DOS.

the evolution works with all the operating systems that the binary code (or genetic code) can produce. As simple as that

John K Clark


Alberto Gómez.

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