On 05 Oct 2012, at 11:04, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Dear john:
2012/10/4 John Clark <[email protected]>
Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> Wrote:
>> Mother Nature (Evolution) is a slow and stupid tinkerer, it had
over 3 billion years to work on the problem but it couldn't even
come up with a macroscopic part that could rotate in 360 degrees!
> First of all, 360 degrees rotation is present in the flagela of
the bacteria, invented about 3800 million years ago
I know, that's why I said "macroscopic". It's easy to make if the
wheel is microscopic because nutriments can just diffuse in and
waste products diffuse out; but as parts get bigger the volume
increases by the cube of the radius but the surface area only
increases by the square, so when things get big diffusion just isn't
good enough. Evolution never figured out how to do better and make a
wheel large enough to see, but people did.
I explained in a post above why evolution does not select weels.
An autonomous living being must be topologically connected, and
weels are not. This is a neat consequence of the need of
repairability. No autonomous robot with weels can work for long time
without supoort.. This is explained in detail somewhere above.
> under intense comet bombardement. try to do it yourself in the
same conditions
Oh I think if I tried real hard I could figure out how to make a
wheel that you didn't need a electron microscope to see,
particularly if you gave me 3.8 billion years to work on the
problem. But the task stumped Evolution.
> If there is no weel in natural evolution is because legs are far
superior.
Claiming that nature could find no use for a macroscopic part that
could move in 360 degrees, a part like a neck or a shoulder or a
wrist or a ball bearing, is simply not credible. And I have no doubt
that a supersonic bird or a propeller driven whale or a fire
breathing lizard or a nuclear powered cow could successfully fill
environmental niches, but making such a thing was just too hard for
random mutation and natural selection to do.
Electron are wheels. Rolling pebbles are wheel. Planets are wheels.
Solar systems are wheels, galaxies are wheels. Unitary transformations
are abstract wheels.
Some plants in the desert, when they dried, transforms themselves into
wheels, and roll with the wind, to spread the seeds.
It is not reason which invented the wheels, it is reason which get
inspired by the nature's many wheels and circles (e^ix).
Also, evolution uses reasons, all the time, and reason(s) already
exist(s) completely in arithmetic. It is the Noùs, divided in his
terrestrial part and divine parts (G and G*).
With comp there is still a danger to say that evolution is "superior"
to (human) reason: the computationalist will retort that addition and
multiplication of integers is "superior" to evolution.
Bruno
> The claim of superiority of reason over nature is the last vestige
of unjustified antropocentrism
Anthropomorphism is a very useful tool but like any tool it can be
misused; not all anthropomorphisms are unjustified.
> in its most dangerous form: Pride and self worship.
Guilty as charged, I'm a big fan of pride and self worship, it may
be a bit dangerous but is sure beats the hell out of worshiping God.
you at least agree that is dangerous. Beware of all these self-help
books. My theory is that self-steem, like suicide and the white of
the eyes are social adaptations. No other animal has the white of
the eyes. Thanks to it, other people can monitor very well your eye
movements, so they can detect your lies, deceptions, but the others
can trust you, because you bring them a mechanism for mind reading.
In the overall, the social group fitness is inproved.
Thats why sunglasses make people to look untrusty and menacing!!!
I left to you to elaborate the conjecture of why self-steem and
suicide are social adaptations.
These social level adaptation may not be good for each one as
individuals, but are good for the society. No society, no you.
Therefore in the middle-long term, these things are good for you and
your descendants.
> evolution works simultaneously with infinite variables
Evolution does not work in the rarefied realm of pure mathematics it
works in the physical world, and as near as we can tell in physics
there is not a infinite number of anything.
Evolution works with the computer of all reality, that is at the
same time its own game scenario. It is massivelly parallel. It has
the maximum paralellism that may be achieved: a computer for each
element in the game.
> we NEVER are sure of knowing in FULL the reasons behind an
evolutionary design
True, but we don't need to know all the reasons to make something
better; we don't know all the factors than caused bone to have the
exact composition that it does, but a human made titanium girder is
a hell of a lot stronger than any bone.
> That gives evolutionary design an appearance of mess poor design
It certainly does!
> This is NOT the case.
Baloney. Evolution has no need to be perfect because an organism
need not be perfect, it just needs to be a little better than the
competition. Just look at the cells of the retina of the eye of any
vertebrate animal, the blood vessels that feed those cells and the
nerves that communicate with them aren’t in the back of the eye as
would be logical but at the front, so light must pass through them
before the light hits the light sensitive cells, this makes vision
less sharp than it would otherwise be and creates a blind spot right
in the middle of the visual field. No amount of spin can turn this
dopey mess into a good design, a human engineer would have to be
drunk to come up with a hodgepodge like that.
I explained that before , in detail, why this is so. This desing is
better because it permits the eye to rotate. Moreover, the reverse
position of a light detector is in order to avoid a twitst on every
nerve, A reversed detector still produces an image of a single
point, not a blurred image. Please go back and read the extense
discussion about this point.
> If evolution and reason collide, the prudent is to consider that
the reason don´t know enough.
That's not being prudent that's just making lame excuses for
Evolution. In the case of invertebrates nature got it right and so
in the eye of a squid it put the blood vessels and nerves in the
back of the eye as any idiot can see where they belong, but it's far
too late for Evolution to give that improvement to vertebrates
because it would have to go backwards and start over, and with
Evolution every change must confer a immediate advantage; Evolution
can never admit that it made a mistake in the past but must always
blindly march forward, a human designer can swallow his pride junk
his old design an create a new and better standard.
read above
> natural evolution does not start from scratch it has to modify
previous designsz
Exactly, and that is a huge disadvantage, Evolution can't erase
anything it can only add new crap on top of the old crap because
every change must confer a immediate advantage. Consider the task of
changing the tire on a car and imagine if every single part of the
task no matter how small, every movement of a bolt every adjustment
of both the flat and the good tire, must confer a IMMEDIATE
advantage to the operation of the car. You'd never get the tire
changed!
Don´t loose the perspective: evolution does not work by modofying
the best design every time. tha´ts wrong. It also work with
suboptimal alternatives and with most other variants. He works with
all variations that the genetic code can produce. It has you, but
also it has bacterias to build from.
> while reason without the help of tradiction, operates from scratch.
Yes, so a human can jump directly from the tangled mess of DOS to a
clean streamlined operating system like LINUX, but Evolution can
only add even more tangled bells and whistles to DOS.
the evolution works with all the operating systems that the binary
code (or genetic code) can produce. As simple as that
John K Clark
Alberto Gómez.
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Alberto.
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