On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>  
>
>> > That there are literally "laws" which physics obeys is a fairy tale.
>>
>
> That statement is ignorance pure and simple. 
>

Not at all. I fully aware that the order of physical structures and 
functions consistent, and that it is common usage to refer to that order as 
laws (law of gravity, laws of thermodynamics, etc.) but while most people 
are content to accept that these 'laws' simply 'are', I am more inclined to 
question what exactly we mean by that. What law allows laws to simply 
exist? By now you should know that my understanding that this ultimate law 
is not a law at all, but rather a capacity for sense participation.


> > How can reason be created for a reason (circular) or created not for a 
> reason 
>
>>
> I don't understand what part of X is Y OR X is not Y confuses you. 
>

I'm not even a tiny bit confused. You aren't answering the question. I am 
asking about the origin of 'reason' itself:

Try again:
*
How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a 
reason (fails because it is circular) or created not for a reason (fails 
because it attributes something from nothing)?*

Do you see that you argument against free will is also an argument against 
the existence of any reason at all?



> > (something from nothing)?
>>
>
> Exactly. As I've said before there is no logical reason that every event 
> must have a cause, logically some things can be random; and modern physics 
> tells us that it's not only logical possible its physically actual.
>

You are claiming that causality emerged from randomness, but that free will 
could not have emerged the same way.
 

>
> >The computer doesn't choose anything. A function is executed, that is all.
>>
>
> > A function is executed?!! A function is a rule, that is all. 
>>
>>
> > No. A rule is 'don't cross the yellow lines'.
>>
>
> Functions have domains and ranges, in this case the car and the area 
> inside the yellow lines.   
>
>
>  A function is the use of the steering column to turn the wheels of the 
>> car. 
>>
>
> Yes. the domain is the movement of the steering column and the range the 
> movement of the car.
>

What is preventing the car from breaking the rule?
 

>
> > Huge difference.
>>
>
> No difference. It's a shame you never studied elementary algebra.  
>

I got an A in algebra. What is a narrow parochial definition of function 
doing in a conversation about cosmology and metaphysics?
 

>
> > Rules do nothing unless something follows them. 
>>
>
> Something like a function.
>

You really have no capacity to tell the difference between academic 
formalism and concrete reality do you? Your use of function is a 
grammatical reference. Those kinds of functions don't follow rules except 
in the mind of an algebra student. 


> > Functions potentially cause physical changes.
>>
>
> And so can rules.
>

Explain to me how exactly that happens. Use a real example please.
 

>  
>
>> > You have no idea what I am talking about.
>>
>
> True. The question now is, do you know what you are talking about? 
>

Of course.
 

>
> > Why couldn't you function if you believed you were the only conscious 
> being in the universe?
>
> I think we can all agree that's a pretty stupid question. As I've said, 
> just negating everything your opponent says doesn't work, you've got to 
> have a strategy.
>

I didn't negate anything - you did. I asked you a question. You did not 
answer it because you don't have an answer for it, so instead you lob some 
more scorn over the fence at me. If it's a pretty stupid question, just go 
ahead and answer it. Granted it's not as probing and intelligent as "The 
question now is, do you know what you are talking about? " but I think 
you'll find it quite a bit more worthwhile to answer.

Craig 


>   John K Clark
>
>
>  
>

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