Hello people, right spelling is autopoiesis and to better understanding I 
recommend reading "Autopoiesis and Cognition" and "The Tree of Knowledge" from 
Maturana et Varela.

Roberto Szabó

Em 17/10/2012, às 09:25, "Roger Clough" <rclo...@verizon.net> escreveu:

> Hi Terren Suydam  
> 
>    IMHO autopoesis, like all of AI, is a tool for the public, objective world 
> (Thirdness)
>    That is fine, but the real nitty-gritty (such as mind or consciousness)
>    dwells in subjective experiences (quale) (Firstness). So I don't find
>    autopoesis that useful or profound.
> 
> er Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/17/2012  
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content -----  
> From: Terren Suydam  
> Receiver: everything-list  
> Time: 2012-10-16, 11:37:05 
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: autopoesis 
> 
> 
> Hi Russell, 
> 
> I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, 
> it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is 
> for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary 
> numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't 
> emerge until well after its conception. 
> 
> Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff. 
> 
> Terren 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish  wrote: 
>> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of 
>> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I 
>> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or 
>> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see 
>> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work). 
>> 
>> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being 
>> discussed on this list. 
>> 
>> Cheers 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: 
>>> Hi Terren Suydam 
>>> 
>>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that. 
>>> 
>>> It wasn't really a thought process, I 
>>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to, 
>>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist. 
>>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". 
>>> 
>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>> 10/15/2012 
>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>>> From: Terren Suydam 
>>> Receiver: everything-list 
>>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 
>>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Roger, 
>>> 
>>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject 
>>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that 
>>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. 
>>> 
>>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the 
>>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there 
>>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the 
>>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of 
>>> processes, it does not assume the physical. 
>>> 
>>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding 
>>> autonomy. 
>>> 
>>> Best, 
>>> Terren 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough  wrote: 
>>>> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
>>>> 
>>>> I agree. 
>>>> 
>>>> I was wrong about autopoesis. It is 
>>>> a mind-boggling definition of life, 
>>>> maybe not even that. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>>> 10/15/2012 
>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>>>> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
>>>> Receiver: everything-list 
>>>> Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 
>>>> Subject: Re: autopoesis 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Roger, 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. 
>>>> 
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? 
>>>> (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" 
>>>> and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and 
>>>> function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto 
>>>> Maturana and Francisco Varela: 
>>>> 
>>>> An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a 
>>>> network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of 
>>>> components 
>>>> which: 
>>>> 
>>>> (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate 
>>>> and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and 
>>>> 
>>>> (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which 
>>>> they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its 
>>>> realization as such a network.[1] 
>>>> 
>>>> [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and 
>>>> cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. 
>>>> When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, 
>>>> however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make 
>>>> a 
>>>> description of this projection.[2] 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack 
>>>> flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public 
>>>> discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". 
>>>> 
>>>> The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of 
>>>> processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to 
>>>> "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the 
>>>> machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) exist 
>>>> by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a 
>>>> network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the 
>>>> discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". 
>>>> 
>>>> The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and 
>>>> dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. 
>>>> 
>>>> m 
>>>> ? 
>>>> 
>>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>>>> 10/14/2012 
>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>>>> 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
>> Principal, High Performance Coders 
>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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