Hi Terren Suydam You needn't agree with me. I respect that.
It wasn't really a thought process, I just couldn't find anything to hold on to, something that works, and I am a pragmatist. Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". Roger Clough, [email protected] 10/15/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Terren Suydam Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis Hi Roger, I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of processes, it does not assume the physical. At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding autonomy. Best, Terren On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy > > I agree. > > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is > a mind-boggling definition of life, > maybe not even that. > > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > 10/15/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 > Subject: Re: autopoesis > > > Hi Roger, > > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > > > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis > > > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? (poiesis), > meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" and expresses > a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and function. The term was > introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto > Maturana and Francisco Varela: > > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of > components > which: > > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate > and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and > > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they > (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its > realization as such a network.[1] > > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and cannot > be described by using dimensions that define another space. > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make a > description of this projection.[2] > > > > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". > > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to "transformations" > which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete > unity in space in which they (the components) exist by specifying the > topological domain of its realization as such a network.[1]", specifically > the "concreteness" of the unity and the discreetness of its domain is > undermined by "transformation". > > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and > dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. > > m > ? > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > 10/14/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
