Hi Roger,

Autopoeisis says there is a boundary between the environment and the
system through which no information crosses (structural closure)... if
we apply that model to our nervous system, we can say that the reality
we experience is a construction, a virtual reality dynamically
generated by the brain as it organizes the signals coming from our
sense neurons. We see this in the nervous system in the sense that
nerves are "line-labelled". It doesn't matter how the photoreceptors
are stimulated - whether by light or pressure, the result is a visual
quale (as when you rub your eyes hard). Likewise, thermoreceptors
stimulated by heat or by capsaisin both result in the quale of
'hotness'.

So to your point that autopoeitic structure only applies to 3p models,
I agree, but if we accept that consciousness arises from, or is the
inside-view of, certain 3p structures, then theorizing about those 3p
structures can yield testable claims about consciousness.

Terren

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Terren Suydam
>
>     IMHO autopoesis, like all of AI, is a tool for the public, objective 
> world (Thirdness)
>     That is fine, but the real nitty-gritty (such as mind or consciousness)
>     dwells in subjective experiences (quale) (Firstness). So I don't find
>     autopoesis that useful or profound.
>
> er Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/17/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Terren Suydam
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-10-16, 11:37:05
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: autopoesis
>
>
> Hi Russell,
>
> I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure,
> it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is
> for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary
> numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't
> emerge until well after its conception.
>
> Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff.
>
> Terren
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish  wrote:
>> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of
>> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I
>> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or
>> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see
>> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work).
>>
>> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being
>> discussed on this list.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote:
>>> Hi Terren Suydam
>>>
>>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that.
>>>
>>> It wasn't really a thought process, I
>>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to,
>>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist.
>>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling".
>>>
>>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>>> 10/15/2012
>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>>> From: Terren Suydam
>>> Receiver: everything-list
>>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43
>>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Roger,
>>>
>>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject
>>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that
>>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it.
>>>
>>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the
>>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there
>>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the
>>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of
>>> processes, it does not assume the physical.
>>>
>>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding 
>>> autonomy.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Terren
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough  wrote:
>>> > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>>> >
>>> > I agree.
>>> >
>>> > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is
>>> > a mind-boggling definition of life,
>>> > maybe not even that.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>>> > 10/15/2012
>>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Receiving the following content -----
>>> > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>>> > Receiver: everything-list
>>> > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19
>>> > Subject: Re: autopoesis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Roger,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life.
>>> >
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? 
>>> > (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means 
>>> > "self-creation" and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, 
>>> > mechanism and function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean 
>>> > biologists Humberto
>>> > Maturana and Francisco Varela:
>>> >
>>> > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a 
>>> > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of 
>>> > components
>>> > which:
>>> >
>>> > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously 
>>> > regenerate and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced 
>>> > them; and
>>> >
>>> > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which 
>>> > they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its 
>>> > realization as such a network.[1]
>>> >
>>> > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and 
>>> > cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space.
>>> > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, 
>>> > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and 
>>> > make a
>>> > description of this projection.[2]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack 
>>> > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public 
>>> > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed".
>>> >
>>> > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of 
>>> > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to 
>>> > "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the 
>>> > machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) 
>>> > exist by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a 
>>> > network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the 
>>> > discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation".
>>> >
>>> > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes 
>>> > and dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense.
>>> >
>>> > m
>>> > ?
>>> >
>>> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>>> > 10/14/2012
>>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>>> >
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>>
>> --
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders
>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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