Hi Bruno Marchal  

I think if you converse with a real person, he has to 
have a body or at least vocal chords or the ability to write.

As to conversing (interacting) with a computer, not sure, but doubtful:
for example how could it taste a glass of wine to tell good wine
from bad ? Same is true of a candidate possible zombie person.

 
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-19, 14:09:59 
Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p 


On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote: 

> Hi Bruno Marchal 
> 
> I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell 
> by trying to converse with it. If it can 
> converse, it's got a mind of its own. 

I agree with. It has mind, and its has a soul (but he has no "real"  
bodies. I can argue this follows from comp). 

When you attribute 1p to another, you attribute to a "shell" to  
manifest a soul or a first person, a knower. 

Above a treshold of complexity, or reflexivity, (L?ianity), a  
universal number get a bigger inside view than what he can ever see  
outside. 

Bruno 






> 
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/18/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Bruno Marchal 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-17, 13:36:13 
> Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p 
> 
> 
> On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
>> Hi Bruno 
>> 
>> Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity 
> 
> OK. And non solipsism is about attributing 1p to others, which needs 
> some independent 3p reality you can bet one, for not being only part 
> of yourself. Be it a God, or a physical universe, or an arithmetical 
> reality. 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
>> 10/17/2012 
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>> From: Alberto G. Corona 
>> Receiver: everything-list 
>> Time: 2012-10-16, 09:55:41 
>> Subject: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" 
>> rather than"is" 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2012/10/11 Bruno Marchal 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal : 
>> 
>> 
>> On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> It may be a zombie or not. I can? know. 
>> 
>> The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made  
>> of 
>> zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in 
>> the conventional thing. ? Maybe it is, because otherwise, I will act 
>> in strange and self destructive ways. I would act as a paranoic,  
>> after 
>> that, as a psycopath (since they are not humans). That will not be 
>> good for my success in society. Then, ? doubt that I will have any 
>> surviving descendant that will develop a zombie-solipsist 
>> epistemology. 
>> 
>> However there are people that believe these strange things. Some 
>> autists do not recognize humans as beings like him. Some psychopaths 
>> too, in a different way. There is no authistic or psichopathic 
>> epistemology because the are not functional enough to make societies 
>> with universities and philosophers. That is the whole point of 
>> evolutionary epistemology. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If comp leads to solipsism, I will apply for being a plumber. 
>> 
>> I don't bet or believe in solipsism. 
>> 
>> But you were saying "that a *conscious* robot" can lack a soul. See 
>> the 
>> quote just below. 
>> 
>> That is what I don't understand. 
>> 
>> Bruno 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I think that It is not comp what leads to solipsism but any 
>> existential stance that only accept what is certain and discard what 
>> is only belief based on ?onjectures. 
>> 
>> It can go no further than ?"cogito ergo sum" 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> OK. But that has nothing to do with comp. That would conflate the 8 
>> person points in only one of them (the "feeler, probably). Only the 
>> feeler is that solipsist, at the level were he feels, but the 
>> machine's self manage all different points of view, and the living 
>> solipsist (each of us) is not mandate to defend the solipsist 
>> doctrine (he is the only one existing)/ he is the only one he can 
>> feel, that's all. That does not imply the non existence of others 
>> and other things. 
>> 
>> 
>> That pressuposes a lot of things that I have not for granted. I have 
>> to accept my beliefs as such beliefs to be at the same time rational 
>> and functional. With respect to the others consciousness, being 
>> humans or robots, I can only have faith. No matter if I accept that 
>> this is a matter of faith or not. 
>> ? 
>> I still don't see what you mean by consciousness without a soul. 
>> 
>> Bruno 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2012/10/9 Bruno Marchal : 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:29, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> But still after this reasoning, ? doubt that the self conscious 
>> philosopher robot have the kind of thing, call it a soul, that I  
>> have. 
>> 
>> 
>> ? 
>> 
>> You mean it is a zombie? 
>> 
>> I can't conceive consciousness without a soul. Even if only the 
>> universal 
>> one. 
>> So I am not sure what you mean by soul. 
>> 
>> Bruno 
>> 
>> 
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
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> 
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