Hi Bruno Marchal
I think if you converse with a real person, he has to have a body or at least vocal chords or the ability to write. As to conversing (interacting) with a computer, not sure, but doubtful: for example how could it taste a glass of wine to tell good wine from bad ? Same is true of a candidate possible zombie person. Roger Clough, [email protected] 10/20/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-19, 14:09:59 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Bruno Marchal > > I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell > by trying to converse with it. If it can > converse, it's got a mind of its own. I agree with. It has mind, and its has a soul (but he has no "real" bodies. I can argue this follows from comp). When you attribute 1p to another, you attribute to a "shell" to manifest a soul or a first person, a knower. Above a treshold of complexity, or reflexivity, (L?ianity), a universal number get a bigger inside view than what he can ever see outside. Bruno > > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > 10/18/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Bruno Marchal > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-17, 13:36:13 > Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p > > > On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: > >> Hi Bruno >> >> Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity > > OK. And non solipsism is about attributing 1p to others, which needs > some independent 3p reality you can bet one, for not being only part > of yourself. Be it a God, or a physical universe, or an arithmetical > reality. > > Bruno > > > > >> >> Roger Clough, [email protected] >> 10/17/2012 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >> >> >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> From: Alberto G. Corona >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2012-10-16, 09:55:41 >> Subject: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" >> rather than"is" >> >> >> >> >> >> 2012/10/11 Bruno Marchal >> >> >> On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >> 2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal : >> >> >> On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >> It may be a zombie or not. I can? know. >> >> The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made >> of >> zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in >> the conventional thing. ? Maybe it is, because otherwise, I will act >> in strange and self destructive ways. I would act as a paranoic, >> after >> that, as a psycopath (since they are not humans). That will not be >> good for my success in society. Then, ? doubt that I will have any >> surviving descendant that will develop a zombie-solipsist >> epistemology. >> >> However there are people that believe these strange things. Some >> autists do not recognize humans as beings like him. Some psychopaths >> too, in a different way. There is no authistic or psichopathic >> epistemology because the are not functional enough to make societies >> with universities and philosophers. That is the whole point of >> evolutionary epistemology. >> >> >> >> >> If comp leads to solipsism, I will apply for being a plumber. >> >> I don't bet or believe in solipsism. >> >> But you were saying "that a *conscious* robot" can lack a soul. See >> the >> quote just below. >> >> That is what I don't understand. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> I think that It is not comp what leads to solipsism but any >> existential stance that only accept what is certain and discard what >> is only belief based on ?onjectures. >> >> It can go no further than ?"cogito ergo sum" >> >> >> >> >> OK. But that has nothing to do with comp. That would conflate the 8 >> person points in only one of them (the "feeler, probably). Only the >> feeler is that solipsist, at the level were he feels, but the >> machine's self manage all different points of view, and the living >> solipsist (each of us) is not mandate to defend the solipsist >> doctrine (he is the only one existing)/ he is the only one he can >> feel, that's all. That does not imply the non existence of others >> and other things. >> >> >> That pressuposes a lot of things that I have not for granted. I have >> to accept my beliefs as such beliefs to be at the same time rational >> and functional. With respect to the others consciousness, being >> humans or robots, I can only have faith. No matter if I accept that >> this is a matter of faith or not. >> ? >> I still don't see what you mean by consciousness without a soul. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2012/10/9 Bruno Marchal : >> >> >> >> On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:29, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >> But still after this reasoning, ? doubt that the self conscious >> philosopher robot have the kind of thing, call it a soul, that I >> have. >> >> >> ? >> >> You mean it is a zombie? >> >> I can't conceive consciousness without a soul. Even if only the >> universal >> one. >> So I am not sure what you mean by soul. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything- >> [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en >> . >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
