On 20 Oct 2012, at 13:55, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal


I think if you converse with a real person, he has to
have a body or at least vocal chords or the ability to write.

Not necessarily. Its brain can be in vat, and then I talk to him by giving him a virtual body in a virtual environnement.

I can also, in principle talk with only its brain, by sending the message through the hearing peripherical system, or with the cerebral stem, and decoding the nervous path acting on the motor vocal cords.




As to conversing (interacting) with a computer, not sure, but doubtful:
for example how could it taste a glass of wine to tell good wine
from bad ?

I just answered this. Machines becomes better than human in smelling and tasting, but plausibly far from dogs and cats competence.



Same is true of a candidate possible zombie person.

Keep in mind that zombie, here, is a technical term. By definition it behaves like a human. No humans at all can tell the difference. Only God knows, if you want.

Bruno





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/20/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-19, 14:09:59
Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p


On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell
by trying to converse with it. If it can
converse, it's got a mind of its own.

I agree with. It has mind, and its has a soul (but he has no "real"
bodies. I can argue this follows from comp).

When you attribute 1p to another, you attribute to a "shell" to
manifest a soul or a first person, a knower.

Above a treshold of complexity, or reflexivity, (L?ianity), a
universal number get a bigger inside view than what he can ever see
outside.

Bruno








Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/18/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-17, 13:36:13
Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p


On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno

Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity

OK. And non solipsism is about attributing 1p to others, which needs
some independent 3p reality you can bet one, for not being only part
of yourself. Be it a God, or a physical universe, or an arithmetical
reality.

Bruno





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/17/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Alberto G. Corona
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-16, 09:55:41
Subject: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"
rather than"is"





2012/10/11 Bruno Marchal


On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal :


On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


It may be a zombie or not. I can? know.

The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made
of
zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in
the conventional thing. ? Maybe it is, because otherwise, I will act
in strange and self destructive ways. I would act as a paranoic,
after
that, as a psycopath (since they are not humans). That will not be
good for my success in society. Then, ? doubt that I will have any
surviving descendant that will develop a zombie-solipsist
epistemology.

However there are people that believe these strange things. Some
autists do not recognize humans as beings like him. Some psychopaths
too, in a different way. There is no authistic or psichopathic
epistemology because the are not functional enough to make societies
with universities and philosophers. That is the whole point of
evolutionary epistemology.




If comp leads to solipsism, I will apply for being a plumber.

I don't bet or believe in solipsism.

But you were saying "that a *conscious* robot" can lack a soul. See
the
quote just below.

That is what I don't understand.

Bruno



I think that It is not comp what leads to solipsism but any
existential stance that only accept what is certain and discard what
is only belief based on ?onjectures.

It can go no further than ?"cogito ergo sum"




OK. But that has nothing to do with comp. That would conflate the 8
person points in only one of them (the "feeler, probably). Only the
feeler is that solipsist, at the level were he feels, but the
machine's self manage all different points of view, and the living
solipsist (each of us) is not mandate to defend the solipsist
doctrine (he is the only one existing)/ he is the only one he can
feel, that's all. That does not imply the non existence of others
and other things.


That pressuposes a lot of things that I have not for granted. I have
to accept my beliefs as such beliefs to be at the same time rational
and functional. With respect to the others consciousness, being
humans or robots, I can only have faith. No matter if I accept that
this is a matter of faith or not.
?
I still don't see what you mean by consciousness without a soul.

Bruno












2012/10/9 Bruno Marchal :



On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:29, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


But still after this reasoning, ? doubt that the self conscious
philosopher robot have the kind of thing, call it a soul, that I
have.


?

You mean it is a zombie?

I can't conceive consciousness without a soul. Even if only the
universal
one.
So I am not sure what you mean by soul.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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