On 10/30/2012 1:53 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/30/2012 2:50 PM, meekerdb wrote:
I think you are confusing the tokens "2 = 1+1" with the proposition 2 = 1+1. The former requires someone who understands the notation to interpret it, but the latter is the interpretation, i.e. the concept. A concept has meaning by definition, otherwise we say we cannot conceptualize it, e.g. klognee flarbles myrable, and so there is nothing to assign a truth value to.

 Dear Brent,

    What is it that distinguishes between tokens and propositions?

Tokens are the physical elements (e.g. letters, words, sounds) that are used to represent a proposition in a particular language. The proposition is the abstracted meaning which is independent of particular language. So "Zwei est ein und ein." are tokens expressing the same proposition as "Two equals one plus one." which is that 2=1+1.


there is no meaning to the concept that the statement is true or false. To insist that a statement has a meaning and is true (or false) in an ontological condition where no entities capable of judging the meaning, begs the question of meaningfulness!

That sounds like idealism, but whatever it is sll theories that will explain the world to us are going to have to apply to times and places where there are no humans. So I guess the question is whether 2=1+1 means to you what it means to the rest of us. If it does it can be part of our explanation.

"In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing. ... As an ontological doctrine, idealism goes further, asserting that all entities are composed of mind or spirit.[2] Idealism thus rejects physicalist and dualist theories that fail to ascribe priority to the mind. An extreme version of this idealism can exist in the philosophical notion of solipsism."

Does that seem like what I am claiming? NO! That is the wiki definition of Idealism, and I agree with that definition and its implications and I reject idealism.


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