On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:00 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  On 12/22/2012 10:02 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 10:50 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>  On 12/22/2012 5:10 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 3:48 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  On 12/22/2012 1:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 2:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  On 12/22/2012 11:36 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As to how computation might lead to consciousness, I think it helps to
>>>> start with a well-defined definition of consciousness.  Take
>>>> dictionary.com's definition:
>>>> "awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings,
>>>> etc."
>>>> Well what is awareness?  dictionary.com defines it as:
>>>> "having knowledge"
>>>> dictionary.com's simplest non-circular definition of knowledge is
>>>> simply "information".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As discussed earlier, you can have information in the Shannon sense,
>>>> but that is just measure over different possible messages.  For it to be
>>>> information *about* something, to be knowledge, it has to be grounded in
>>>> the ability to act.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right.  But how do you define act?  I think changing states within the
>>> process is sufficient.
>>>
>>>
>>>  I don't.  That leads to the paradox of the conscious rock.
>>>
>>
>> I disagree.  There is no *process *within the rock that gives any
>> indication that it "has information of its own existence, sensations,
>> thoughts, or surroundings".
>>
>>
>>  How did "of its own existence" get in there?
>>
>
> That was from the definition above.
>
>
>> Does a spider have to have knowledge of it's own existence to recognize a
>> fly?
>>
>
> No, those items in the list are separated by an "or".
>
>
>>  A rock has internal states that change via chemical reactions, crystal
>> formation, cosmic ray strikes, etc.
>>
>
> Yes but the state changes are not recognized by any stable process
> operating within the rock.  The atoms in the rock do stably store the
> information about what has happened to the rock, but nothing in the rock is
> there to see that record.
>
>
> How do you know?
>

How do I know rocks aren't conscious?  I don't know that, but based on what
I know about the computations they perform they don't seem to build upon
each other in any organized fashion.  There is no difference between a rock
and a grain of sand in terms of what they compute.


> You seem to be saying there's no homunculus to watch a theater of the
> mind; but the explanation of awareness and knowledge cannot be in terms of
> what is aware, is there "to see that record".
>

There is no homonculis which watches the mind, the mind is that process
which interprets information.  Where is the interpreter in the computations
performed in a rock?


>
>
>
>>
>>
>>  The computations, if you can call them that,
>>
>>
>>  That's the point; how do you call some processes knowledge and not
>> others.
>>
>
> It requires determining the program and then figuring out what that
> program knows.
>
>
> But "knows" is what needs explaining.  I'd say something has knowledge if
> it can act intelligently.
>

Acting intelligently requires knowledge but having knowledge doesn't imply
one will act intelligently.


>
>
>  It is not easy or straight forward.  It may not even be possible in all
> cases to identify the presence of a program.
>
>
>>  My answer is that they inform actions - at least potentially.
>>
>
> I agree.
>
>
>>
>>  are only the simplest linear operations of particle collisions, there
>> are no stable structures and no long running coherent computations.
>>
>> Do you not deny that a paralyzed person can be conscious (as is the case
>> with total locked-in syndrome:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome )?
>>
>>
>>  I'm not sure.  "Total locked-in syndrome" seems to still admit
>> interaction by visual perception.
>>
>
> Okay, then I might have misunderstood you.  I thought by your definition
> the interaction had to go both ways.
>
>
>>  Of course the person has memories and knowledge that were formed in the
>> past and were derivative of action.  I think that if an infant suffered
>> total lock in they would never learn to think as normal humans do.  What
>> knowledge is built into an animal is built in by the interactions of
>> natural selection.  So I still think knowledge is grounded in interaction
>> with environments - that the idea of disembodied, and hence isolated
>> consciousness is ultimately incoherent.
>>
>
> A single computation can embody both aspects of the mind and the
> environment.  Would you consider this mind disembodied, even it ran on a
> computer closed off from any inputs from the physical world where that
> computer ran?
>
>
> One might simulate an environment and a mind that was aware of that
> environment, but you could never know that this was the case if the
> computation was not grounded in your environment, e.g. written by a human.
> It would be no different that the random vibrations in a stone.
>
>
I disagree.  I think we could discover a process, let's say some alien
intelligence, even if vastly different from us, or anything we have
previously seen, simply by reverse engineering the computations it
performs.  Information can hide in its infinite interpretations, but
program code cannot.  It is possible to deduce the state of a program and
the meaning of its instructions by watching how it behaves.


>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>   The states within only have meaning by virtue to external actions and
>>> perceptions.
>>>
>>
>> Who is the judge of externality?  Why can't the independent modules in
>> the brain be considered actors in a larger environment?  This seems to lead
>> to a "turtles all the way up" situation, where there have to ever greater
>> levels of external observers or actions.  What if our whole universe were a
>> computer emulation, would that make us into zombies because the giant
>> computer has no external actions?
>>
>>
>>>  The whole evolutionary advantage of having a 'within' is that the brain
>>> can project and anticipate (e.g. 'simulate') the external world as part of
>>> its decision process.
>>>
>>
>> Yes brains and consciousness evolved so we can better interact with the
>> world, but that doesn't mean interaction with the external world is
>> necessary for consciousness.  We evolved the ability to perceive pleasure
>> for (eating, sleeping, mating, etc.), but we can achieve pleasure directly
>> (using direct brain stimulation or drugs) without needing to eat, sleep,
>> mate, etc.
>>
>> I don't think I've met a materialist who rejects the idea that a brain in
>> the vat could be conscious.
>>
>>
>>  Suppose you copied someone's brain, like Bruno's doctor, and put it in a
>> vat with not neural input/output?
>>
>
> Most brains in the vat are fooled into thinking they are having normal
> experiences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat
>
> Surely, the human mind will shatter if not given any input.  Most people
> break after 48 hours of sensory deprivation:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation#.22Total_Isolation.22
>
>
>>  I don't think it would really be conscious very long.  I expect it would
>> either think no thoughts at all or it would become trapped in loop.
>>
>
> That is what happens when human minds are deprived of inputs, but even if
> people enter loops or break psychologically, they don't become zombies just
> by virtue of being isolated.
>
>
> Of course not, a zombie acts normally and so isn't in a loop.  I don't
> think zombies are possible.  At most you might be able to create an
> artificial mind that had a somewhat different kind of consciousness than
> humans (e.g. thinks entirely in images and geometry, instead of words) yet
> still acts intelligently.  In a sense we are partial zombies because much
> of our 'thinking' (information processing) is unconscious.
>

It could also be that different parts of our brains that are independently
conscious and we might not even realize it.

Jason

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