Hi Jason Resch
Consciousness or perception is simply 1p. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/24/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-22, 20:10:05 Subject: Re: How visual images are produced in the brain. Was Dennett rightafter all ? On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 3:48 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: On 12/22/2012 1:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 2:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: On 12/22/2012 11:36 AM, Jason Resch wrote: As to how computation might lead to consciousness, I think it helps to start with a well-defined definition of consciousness.? Take dictionary.com's definition: "awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc." Well what is awareness?? dictionary.com defines it as: "having knowledge" dictionary.com's simplest non-circular definition of knowledge is simply "information". As discussed earlier, you can have information in the Shannon sense, but that is just measure over different possible messages.? For it to be information *about* something, to be knowledge, it has to be grounded in the ability to act. Right.? But how do you define act?? I think changing states within the process is sufficient.? I don't.? That leads to the paradox of the conscious rock. I disagree.? There is no process within the rock that gives any indication that it "has information of its own existence, sensations, thoughts, or surroundings".? The computations, if you can call them that, are only the simplest linear operations of particle collisions, there are no stable structures and no long running coherent computations. Do you not deny that a paralyzed person can be conscious (as is the case with total locked-in syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome )? ? ? The states within only have meaning by virtue to external actions and perceptions.? Who is the judge of externality?? Why can't the independent modules in the brain be considered actors in a larger environment?? This seems to lead to a "turtles all the way up" situation, where there have to ever greater levels of external observers or actions.? What if our whole universe were a computer emulation, would that make us into zombies because the giant computer has no external actions? ? The whole evolutionary advantage of having a 'within' is that the brain can project and anticipate (e.g. 'simulate') the external world as part of its decision process.? Yes brains and consciousness evolved so we can better interact with the world, but that doesn't mean interaction with the external world is necessary for consciousness.? We evolved the ability to perceive pleasure for (eating, sleeping, mating, etc.), but we can achieve pleasure directly (using direct brain stimulation or drugs) without needing to eat, sleep, mate, etc. I don't think I've met a materialist who rejects the idea that a brain in the vat could be conscious. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.