Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I was trying to make a point with liberals, to whom greed is essentially financial exploitation of another. Making profits is greed to many of them.
My point is that that is what capitalism can involve, although not always. The basis of capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Enlightened in the sense that the transaction will not backfire on you. The understanding s that everybody profits if the transaction is for their own interest. They get the goods, you get the money. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/26/2012 "The one thing a woman looks for in a man is to be needed." - "Ethan Frome", by Edith Wharton ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-25, 14:43:55 Subject: Re: why greed is good. Hi Roger, I am convinced that this is off-topic but I'll change that by framing the current mediatized rhetoric of conservative Christians of the last 20 years in US as a TOE, or an epistemology within a TOE, so make that choice; and if you would indulge me you can read on. Imho right versus left is a false framing of problems and priorities. But if greed is universally good, then so are thieves driven by the same. I doubt Christian god and especially his son's incarnation, whose birth is just being celebrated, would agree. I do consider it fascinating how many people that label themselves "conservative" in the US also proclaim to be serious Christians. >From Bible: 1 John 3:17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, ?f you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.? Mark 12: 41-44 And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, ?ruly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.? Luke 3: 10-11 And the crowds asked him, ?hat then shall we do?? And he answered them, ?hoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.? Mathew 6: 24-25 ?o one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. ?herefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? I admit to not reading the Bible often enough to have deep insight on the Christian underpinnings of so much thought and rhetoric that circulates and influences western policy making and conceptions of ethics (What do cowboys read, huh?). But I will venture the bet, that the above quotes are not cherry picked and reflect somewhat accurately one significant aspect of Jesus' messages. For me, the combination of these positions, does not bode well for TOE binding those two ways of thinking. PGC On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: Hi meekerdb Some economists argue that the wealthy invest their money, creating capital for creating businesses, hiring workers, and generally enriching the economy. ?(The poor don't save money for others to use.) So greed is good for the country. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/25/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: meekerdb Receiver: Barrett Meeker,Art Shaffman,Bill Stermer,Dan Foster,Gennifer home,Ed Gravlin,Hugh Kramer,Jim Wilkinson,Kirsten Meeker,Lara gmail,Mae Meeker,Marsha home,Mark Morgan,Mike Kory,Terry & Lucy home,Tom Blattel Time: 2012-12-24, 14:56:25 Subject: Re: clearing up the confusion on the fairness index I was not confused. I think a good argument can be made from simple fairness; that income (and wealth) should be more evenly distributed. ?ut even this chart doesn't fully illustrate the problem. ?f all those households simply spent their money on goods and services and investments the inequality would be fairly benign. ?ut at the high end, there is so much disposable income available that the very rich also spend it on influencing public policy (aka buying legislation). ?o paraphrase Al Capone: You can get a lot further with a vote and 10M$ than you can with a vote alone. On 12/24/2012 8:48 AM, Roger wrote: Hi meekerdb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States This graph shows the income of the given percentiles from 1947 to 2010 in 2010 dollars. The 2 columns of numbers in the right margin are the cumulative growth 1970-2010 and the annual growth rate over that period. The vertical scale is logarithmic, which makes constant percentage growth appear as a straight line. From 1947 to 1970, all percentiles grew at essentially the same rate; the light, straight lines for the different percentiles for those years all have the same slope. Meaning that the gini didn't change. Since then, there has been substantial divergence, with different percentiles of the income distribution growing at different rates. For the median American family, this gap is $39,000 per year (just over $100 per day): If the economic growth during this period had been broadly shared as it was from 1947 to 1970, the median household income would have been $39,000 per year higher than it was in 2010. Almost double what it is. This plot was created by combining data from the US Census Bureau and the US Internal Revenue Service. There are systematic ?ifferences between these two sources, but the differences are small relative to the scale of this plot. Brent You can get further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. ? ? ? --- Al Capone -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. 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