Hi Bruno Marchal No, the Devil would never disparage reason. For reason, as we can see on this list, is the father of doubt.
Reason, for example through Aquinas' 5 proofs of God, can get you no closer to God than plausibility. You have to take the blind leap of faith to actually reach God. See how clever Satan is, using perfectly reasonable questions and common sense to deceive Eve into eating the apple: "The Fall 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 17:41:09 Subject: Re: WHY YOU SHOULDN'T BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN On 12 Jan 2013, at 12:03, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi meekerdb > > As you observe, beliefs can be slippery, because reason is the > devil's whore. That's a rumor propelled by the Devil :) Reason is bad only for those of bad faith. Religion does not oppose with reason. It extends it. Reason is the best ally to honest religion. Reason is the enemy of those who want to manipulate you in religion's name. From your post, I am sure you agree on this at some level. The more you trust God, the less you fear the use of reason, even if not especially in theology. To oppose science and faith perverts ... science and faith. I think. Bruno > That's why we Lutherans rely first on faith (trust in God). > Second on the Bible. > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/12/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: meekerdb > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-11, 17:42:15 > Subject: Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS. > > > On 1/11/2013 2:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 11:25 AM, wrote: > > In a message dated 1/11/2013 2:27:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jasonre...@gmail.com > writes: > 1) Choose some religion, it doesn't matter which > 2) Find an idea some adherents of that religion put forward but > almost no one seriously believes in or is easily shown to be > inconsistent > 3) Assume that because you have disproved one idea of one religion > that all ideas found in all religions are false and/or unscientific > 4) Bask in the feeling of superiority over those who are not so > enlightened > > > Jason > > Ok, so in Darwinian fashion you sort through hundreds of faiths, so > what happens when you cannot dissprove a religion? You sort them > down till you hit a toughie, does that make it automatically > correct, or is it the intellectual limitation of the sorter? Your > Basking, is angering many non-believers, even. Witness Higg's > criticism of Dawkins. Believers, Jason, I suppose will merely, pray > for your soul (poor lad!). > > Perhaps if you decided to create your own religion, that couldn't be > disproved, based on physics, or math, you would be coming up with > the best faith? Then we could all be converted to being Jasonites. > Or Reschers-whichever you prefer? > > > I'm nor sure I understand your point. My point was only that John's > adherence to atheism, which he defines as belief in no Gods, is less > rational than someone following his 4-step program to become a > liberal theologian. > > > In particular, it is the above step 3, rejecting all religious ideas > as false without giving the idea a fair scientific evaluation, which > is especially problematic. John is perhaps being prescient in > turning a blind eye to these other ideas, as otherwise we might have > the specter of a self-proclaimed atheist who finds scientific > justification for after lives, reincarnation, karma, beings who > exercise complete control over worlds of their design and creation, > as well as a self-existent changeless infinite object responsible > for the existence of all reality. > > > He would rather avoid those topics altogether and take solace in > denying specific instances of inconsistent or silly definitions of > God. > > > But your parody fails as a serious argument because the ideas put > forward by *almost all theists* include a very powerful, beneficent, > all knowing superbeing who will judge and reward and punish souls in > an after life and who answers prayers. Now some, far from powerful, > humans with far from complete information, eliminated smallpox from > the world. God therefore must have had that power and simply chose > not to do it. So if any very powerful, very knowledgeable > superbeing exists, it is not beneficent and not an acceptable judge > of good and evil. These are not just a peripheral idea of theisms > and it's falsehood is not a minor point because all theism insist > that these ideas are definitive of their religion. > > John didn't say that all religions are false or unscientific. His > point was that you can avoid those attributes by becoming a *liberal > theologian* - and incidentally that nothing follows from liberal > theology. > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.