On Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:52:13 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com <javascript:>>wrote:
>
> >> With complex numbers you can make a one to one relationship between the 
>>> way numbers add subtract multiply and divide and the way things move in a 
>>> two dimensional plane. What more could you want arithmetic to do in support 
>>> of geometry, where on earth is the incompatibility?? 
>>>
>>
>> >  It doesn't matter whether arithmetic *supports* geometry or not.
>>
>
> It doesn't???
>

No, I would assume that geometric truths don't contradict arithmetic truths.
 

>  
>
>>  What matters is that if we cannot explain to how arithmetic *actually 
>> becomes geometry*, why it *must become geometric* under some arithmetic 
>> condition,
>>
>
> Well, "under some arithmetical conditions" numbers behave exactly 
> precisely in the way that Euclid said geometric objects should behave. 
>

That doesn't say anything about arithmetic becoming geometry.  A program 
can predict exactly how an apple will fall from a tree, but that doesn't 
mean that if apples didn't exist, the program would create them.
 

> Numbers have also told us something we could not have found out in any 
> other way, that Euclid's way is not the only way that geometric objects can 
> behave that is logically consistent. And then Einstein, also using numbers, 
> showed that not only is this non-euclidean way possible it is the only way 
> to figure out how things change in very powerful gravitational fields.    
>

Yes, because have geometry (because of our sensory experience = no thanks 
to arithmetic), we can use arithmetic to extend our understanding of 
geometry and use that geometry in turn to extend our sense of arithmetic - 
but neither geometry or arithmetic imply each other without our sense of 
relation between visually experienced shapes and cognitively understood 
ideas.


> > we *certainly cannot* claim that a purely arithmetic universe could 
>> possibly contain any geometry at all.
>>
>
> Given the above what aspect of geometry have numbers failed to capture?
>

The geometric aspect. The shapes. Without shapes, angles, lines, volumes, 
there are only invisible quantitative relationships.
 

>
> >AI programs wouldn't need to be written if computers could use cameras to 
>> see. 
>>
>
> And people wouldn't need brains if eyes could see, but eyes can't see. 
>

Eyes can see, but not like humans see. There are plankton with eyes. No 
brain is required to see.
 

> Eyes and TV cameras do the same thing, they both use a encoding protocol 
> to turn the information in a 2D image into a 1D signal that can be sent 
> down a wire (the wire can be made of copper or protoplasm) to a processing 
> unit made of neurons or transistors. If 2 cameras or 2 eyes are used the 
> processing unit can obtain additional information about the third dimension 
> if the correct sort of data processing is used.
>

Our eyes allow us to see, and so do cameras. Cameras do not allow computers 
to see, they only generate data which is interpreted invisibly and 
meaninglessly.
 

>
>  >> But the only way to prove that to others is by successfully 
>>> maneuvering something through a 3D obstacle course, and existing AI 
>>> programs can already do this.
>>>
>>
>> > Why would I need to prove that to others?
>>
>
> For the same reason you demand that a AI prove it is conscious.
>

I don't demand that AI prove it is conscious, I understand why it is not 
conscious.

Craig
 

>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>

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