On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 17 Feb 2013, at 18:09, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who replied to this post.  So far Stathis and Bruno both
> answered that both cases are equivalent.
>
> Is there anyone willing to argue against either:
> 1. you don't experience torture when your memory of it is wiped, or
> 2. you don't experience torture when your perfect duplicate is tortured?
>
>
>
> Those are interesting questions, but they ask for thought experiences with
> amnesia, which can quickly, too much quickly, makes you suspicious that
> personal identity is an illusion. My experience is that when people begin to
> grasp this, they can feel quite uneasy.
>
> A related question, that I ask to you, Jason. Would you accept to sleep in
> my sleep-laboratory. I pay you 100$ or even more. But I tell you in advance
> that you will live your worst nightmare. I tell you also that I have the
> means to make you, in the morning after, completely forgetting that
> nightmare.
> Are you OK? Are you OK that your son or daughter makes money in that way?
> Can this be legal?
>
> Is it equivalent with this: I duplicate you and torture the copy for one
> hour, and then I kill that copy (assuming I can)?
> Is this not equivalent with a forgotten dream of torture? Are you OK that
> your daughter makes money in that way?
>
> Bruno

There used to be a drug administered for childbirth which would allow
the mother-to-be- to experience excruciating pain as evidenced by her
behavior during the birthing process yet afterwards she would have no
memory of that pain. Doctors found that acceptable and assumed there
was no lasting trauma.

My opinion is that there is lasting trauma that has to be consciously
re-experienced to be resolved. So one may as well experience
childbirth without drugs to begin with. BTW- off-list topic??


>
>
>
>
> Jason
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Consider the following thought experiment, called "The Duplicators":
>>
>> At 1:00 PM tomorrow, you will be abducted by aliens. The aliens will tell
>> you not to worry, that you won't be harmed but they wish to conduct some
>> experiments on the subject of pain, which is unknown to them. These aliens
>> possess technology far in advance of our own. They have the ability to scan
>> and replicate objects down to the atomic level and the aliens use this
>> technology to create an atom-for-atom duplicate of yourself, which they call
>> you2. The aliens thank you for your assistance and return you unharmed back
>> to your home by 5:00 PM. You ask them "What about the pain experiments?" and
>> they hand you an informational pamphlet and quickly fly off. You read the
>> pamphlet which explains that a duplicate of you (you2) was created and
>> subjected to some rather terrible pain experiments, akin to what humans call
>> torture and at the end of the experiment you2 was euthanized. You consider
>> this awful, but are nonetheless glad that they tortured your duplicate
>> rather than you.
>>
>> Now consider the slightly different thought experiment, called "The
>> Restorers":
>>
>> At 1:00 PM tomorrow, you will be abducted by aliens. Unlike the aliens
>> with the duplication technology (the duplicators), these aliens possess a
>> restorative technology. They can perfectly erase memories and all other
>> physical traces to perfectly restore you to a previous state. The aliens
>> will tell you not to worry, that you won't be harmed but they wish to
>> conduct some experiments on the subject of pain, which is unknown to them.
>> They then proceed to brutually torture you for many hours, conducting test
>> after test on pain. Afterwards, they erase your memory of the torture and
>> all traces of injury and stress from your body. When they are finished, you
>> are atom-for-atom identical to how you were before the torture began. The
>> aliens thank you for your assistance and return you unharmed back to your
>> home by 5:00 PM. You ask them "What about the pain experiments?" and they
>> hand you an informational pamphlet and quickly fly off. You read the
>> pamphlet which explains that a duplicate of you (you2) was created and
>> subjected to some rather terrible pain experiments, akin to what humans call
>> torture and at the end of the experiment you2 was euthenized. You consider
>> this awful, but are nonetheless glad that they tortured your duplicate
>> rather than you.
>>
>> My questions for the list:
>>
>> 1. Do you consider yourself to have experienced the torture in the case of
>> the Restorers, even though you no longer remember it?  If not, why not.
>>
>> 2. If yes, do you consider yourself to have experienced the torture in the
>> case of the Duplicators?  If yes, please explain, if not, please explain.
>>
>> 3. If you could choose which aliens would abduct you, is there one you
>> would prefer?  If you have a preference, please provide some justification.
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>
>
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