2013/5/17 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > > On 17 May 2013, at 12:07, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 05:39:50AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: >> >>> Hi Art Funkhouser >>> >>> The documented fact that people have had "near death" >>> experiences after death, after electrical activity in the brain >>> ceases suggests to me at least that the mind does not >>> need the brain to function. >>> >>> This is also suggested by "out of the body" experiences >>> >>> >> Where's your evidence of this happening? You're not just claiming that >> people have been resuscitated from a brain dead state, but that they >> are conscious as well. Reliable evidence of this would be big news indeed! >> > > > It is very hard to assess scientifically presence, or absence, of > consciousness, notably of person in highly comatose state. > One reason for this is the Maury Effect ((as I call it in "conscience et > mécanisme") . You have perhaps heard about Maury's theory of dream. Maury, > like Malcolm, pretended that we are unconscious the whole night, including > during "dream episodes". In fact Maury argued that dreams do not exist, and > that a dream is a construction done at the moment of awakening. This has > been rather properly refuted with the use of lucid dreams and Electro > Encephalo-measurements (Hearne, Laberge, Dement, ...(You can find the > references in the bibliography of "conscience et Mécanism"(*)). > Yet, in dream, the brain, like a talented novelist can create in a short > laps of time an imaginary past, similar to what Maury thought the entire > dream is. In fact it is hard to imagine how a dream can "begun" without > creating a situation and a memory configuration for that situation. This > does not explain all aspect of a NDE, but can invalidate too quick > deduction, especially that the recovering from coma is a slow process, > where the brain get more active in some incremental way, and during that > time a Maury effect would be the easier explanation for the apparent > feeling of having live something during the time of the comma. > Note that a digital reconstitution can also be seen as some Maury effect. > The reconstitution creates a long-life-past memory. > > Other more impressive reports exist, where people, after a coma, can > describe happenings in the room or in the hospital when they were in the > comatose state.
But does it exist such report about person in brain dead state that somehow awaken/revive from that state ? I don't think that exists. Regards, Quentin > This is far more impressive, but unfortunately, although amazingly many > physicians reports such facts, it is hard to assess them, or repeat them, > as it is obvious we can't put a human Guinea Pig in such state, which are > "really" near death, and that would be unethical to try. For each > particular case, loopholes exist in the account. More case studies are > needed, with some progress in anesthesiology. > > Are NDE contradicting "mainstream science"? It seems to me that > "mainstream science", by its current Aristotelianism is already > contradicted itself by ideas like COMP or STRONG-AI. > > Does NDE assess the comp platonism? Comp predicts a large range of > "after-life experiences". Comp predicts also what can be memorized from > them, what can be told, and what cannot be memorized at all. It is here > that the salvia reports seem to me very amazing, as it looks people can > memorize more than what comp would allowed, unless our subst-level appears > to be *very* more low than neurons (perhaps). > > Well, given that we might be seriously wrong with the mind-matter > connection since Aristotle, we can be sure only of one thing: much more > work has to be done on this subject, and this, if possible, in a very large > open frame of mind, far from religious or anti-religious prejudices. Use of > different narcotics should be encouraged, but we are a long way from that > too. Salvia and DMT seem to have NDE like effects, and seem to be non > toxic, and non dangerous when done with a minimum amount of responsibility. > > Bruno > > (*) http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/bxlthesis/** > consciencemecanisme.html<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/bxlthesis/consciencemecanisme.html> > > > > >> -- >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ---------------- >> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> Principal, High Performance Coders >> Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] >> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ---------------- >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%[email protected]> >> . >> To post to this group, send email to >> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >> . >> For more options, visit >> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >> . >> >> >> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%[email protected]> > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > > > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
