2013/5/17 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > > On 17 May 2013, at 12:07, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 05:39:50AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: >> >>> Hi Art Funkhouser >>> >>> The documented fact that people have had "near death" >>> experiences after death, after electrical activity in the brain >>> ceases suggests to me at least that the mind does not >>> need the brain to function. >>> >>> This is also suggested by "out of the body" experiences >>> >>> >> Where's your evidence of this happening? You're not just claiming that >> people have been resuscitated from a brain dead state, but that they >> are conscious as well. Reliable evidence of this would be big news indeed! >> > > > It is very hard to assess scientifically presence, or absence, of > consciousness, notably of person in highly comatose state. > One reason for this is the Maury Effect ((as I call it in "conscience et > mécanisme") . You have perhaps heard about Maury's theory of dream. Maury, > like Malcolm, pretended that we are unconscious the whole night, including > during "dream episodes". In fact Maury argued that dreams do not exist, and > that a dream is a construction done at the moment of awakening. This has > been rather properly refuted with the use of lucid dreams and Electro > Encephalo-measurements (Hearne, Laberge, Dement, ...(You can find the > references in the bibliography of "conscience et Mécanism"(*)). > Yet, in dream, the brain, like a talented novelist can create in a short > laps of time an imaginary past, similar to what Maury thought the entire > dream is. In fact it is hard to imagine how a dream can "begun" without > creating a situation and a memory configuration for that situation. This > does not explain all aspect of a NDE, but can invalidate too quick > deduction, especially that the recovering from coma is a slow process, > where the brain get more active in some incremental way, and during that > time a Maury effect would be the easier explanation for the apparent > feeling of having live something during the time of the comma. > Note that a digital reconstitution can also be seen as some Maury effect. > The reconstitution creates a long-life-past memory. > > Other more impressive reports exist, where people, after a coma, can > describe happenings in the room or in the hospital when they were in the > comatose state.
But does it exist such report about person in brain dead state that somehow awaken/revive from that state ? I don't think that exists. Regards, Quentin > This is far more impressive, but unfortunately, although amazingly many > physicians reports such facts, it is hard to assess them, or repeat them, > as it is obvious we can't put a human Guinea Pig in such state, which are > "really" near death, and that would be unethical to try. For each > particular case, loopholes exist in the account. More case studies are > needed, with some progress in anesthesiology. > > Are NDE contradicting "mainstream science"? It seems to me that > "mainstream science", by its current Aristotelianism is already > contradicted itself by ideas like COMP or STRONG-AI. > > Does NDE assess the comp platonism? Comp predicts a large range of > "after-life experiences". Comp predicts also what can be memorized from > them, what can be told, and what cannot be memorized at all. It is here > that the salvia reports seem to me very amazing, as it looks people can > memorize more than what comp would allowed, unless our subst-level appears > to be *very* more low than neurons (perhaps). > > Well, given that we might be seriously wrong with the mind-matter > connection since Aristotle, we can be sure only of one thing: much more > work has to be done on this subject, and this, if possible, in a very large > open frame of mind, far from religious or anti-religious prejudices. Use of > different narcotics should be encouraged, but we are a long way from that > too. Salvia and DMT seem to have NDE like effects, and seem to be non > toxic, and non dangerous when done with a minimum amount of responsibility. > > Bruno > > (*) http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/bxlthesis/** > consciencemecanisme.html<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/bxlthesis/consciencemecanisme.html> > > > > >> -- >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ---------------- >> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> Principal, High Performance Coders >> Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au >> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ---------------- >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >> . >> To post to this group, send email to >> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<everything-list@googlegroups.com> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >> . >> For more options, visit >> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >> . >> >> >> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com<everything-list@googlegroups.com> > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > > > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
