>> A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as economic desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in society and then people are always indioctrinated that their current norms and values are correct.
Of course we regard our norms and values as correct. They are our norms and values. However, history shows a steady flow towards more humane rather than less humane norms and values. >> So, there was a time when when drawing and quartering was a normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved away from that. Quite. we have gradually moved away from that kind of obscenity rather than towards it. >> We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in society No, by your very own example we are more sensitive to it. Like you point out, we have gradually moved to the point where barbarities like drawing and quartering are less acceptable. We now regard kicking a dog as barbaric let alone public execution. >> So, Hitler could have remained a popular dictator in Germany and the >> Holocaust would have had a completely different character. By your own argument so far this is a non-sequitur. Moreover, you have failed to show how Hitler could ever have come to power in the absence of economic desperation. You haven't even argued for it. You ought to be demonstrating a gentle creep into barbarity but you demonstrate the opposite. >> From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the norm. So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only in case of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other people who are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would find them having to defend their views more. We gradually moved from societies in which slavery was an accepted norm to ones which regard it as barbaric. This happened without cataclysm. This amounts to a falsifying example. This may help: http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/principle_of_falsification.html >>You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. the way we run the World economy with billions of people living in poverty could be called totally immoral by people who live a century from now. This has been regarded as immoral for a very long time. You should read up on this gentleman. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/ But, in any case, yes, our descendants will view some of our norms and values as troubling. Just as we do our ancestors. This is because there is a gentle creep away from barbarity rather than towards it. >> They could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis. If they were stupid. Intelligent judges from the future would recognize that by the 21st century the gradual reduction in barbarity over millenia had reached a point where poverty, womens rights, animal rights, gay rights, could come to the forefront of the moral agenda. Its not the case that poverty was not an issue before, but that prior to the past 50 years or so there have been more pressing and blood thirsty barbarities to quell. All the best. > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 14:41:43 +0200 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood > > A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as > economic desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in > society and then people are always indioctrinated that their current > norms and values are correct. So, there was a time when when drawing > and quartering was a normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved > away from that. If you move very fast away from this, then there will > be big differences in the opnions of people about wthe current system > being ok. or totally unacceptable. > > We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in > society, e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war > (suppose e.g. that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western > powers declaring war on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a > popular dictator in Germany and the Holocaust would have had a > competely different character. > > From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the > norm. So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only > in case of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other > peole who are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would > find them having to defend their views more. > > You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some > reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g. > the way we run the World economy with billions of people living in > poverty could be called totally immoral by people who live a century > from now. They could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis. > > Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have an alien visiting us who then > judges us to be guilty of mass genocide against the environment and who > then decides that we should all be exterminated so that life on Earth > can be saved from us. > > If in one reasonable value system something can be genocide on an > unimaginable scale, while in another one it is business as usual, then > the processes that led to this being flagged as "business as usual" in > our brains have their origin in arbitrary events in our history, as > there is no preference for the flagging as "business as usual" being > preferred given the way our brain works. > > > Saibal > > > Citeren Pierz <[email protected]>: > > > "...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3 > > branches..." What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the WW3 > > branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal? > > > > On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:49:59 AM UTC+10, Pierz wrote: > >> > >> Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their > >> logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been better off > >> if WW3 hadn't happened? Since "everything happens" in some branch of the > >> multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world is > >> better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you saying > >> that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the hypothetical > >> branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it to the > >> sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be higher > >> in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather absurd > >> claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the additional > >> happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering, > >> unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc etc > >> before "getting ahead" at all, and secondly because this is all based on > >> the theory that Nazism not being "debunked" (It was exterminated) would > >> have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream of > >> global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition. Extremism > >> is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to fully > >> recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have > >> looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an > >> affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death > >> without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's what > >> *would* have happened, because making predictions about the consequences of > >> any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd like to > >> disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab uprisings > >> will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how well > >> you performed. > >> > >> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, [email protected] wrote: > >>> > >>> Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very narrow > >>> minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally > >>> politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view. > >>> > >>> Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the > >>> Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have > >>> been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free > >>> societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like > >>> euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would > >>> have been business as usual. > >>> > >>> The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral > >>> values we have today are universal and that you can look back many > >>> decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having > >>> supported the Nazis back then. > >>> > >>> In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is > >>> against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information > >>> did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and > >>> history has run a different course in different sectors of the > >>> multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In fact > >>> we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the > >>> multiverse, because all possible programs exists. > >>> > >>> Saibal > >>> > >>> > >>> Citeren [email protected]: > >>> > >>> > I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be it. > >>> > Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for the > >>> > evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's > >>> > of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India, > >>> > using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they detonate > >>> > it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: smitra <[email protected]> > >>> > To: everything-list <[email protected]> > >>> > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am > >>> > Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have been > >>> > etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets > >>> > ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon. > >>> > > >>> > iteren Roger Clough <[email protected]>: > >>> >> > >>> > The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood > >>> > > >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y > >>> > > >>> > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] > >>> > See my Leibniz site at > >>> > http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>> > send an email to [email protected]. > >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > - > >>> > ou received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> Groups > >>> > Everything List" group. > >>> > o unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >>> > an email > >>> > o [email protected]. > >>> > o post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> > isit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>> > or more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>> > send an email to [email protected]. > >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > send an email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
