On 03 Sep 2013, at 18:23, John Clark wrote:

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On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:> indeed "free" does not add much to the will, except to emphasize alocal freedom degrees spectrum.It doesn't even do that. "Will" is the set of things I want to do,

It is a bit circular, but that's not a problem. OK.

but some of those things may not be physically possible, and some ofmy wishes may not even be logically consistent with each other, butI want them all the same.

? Well, in that case you have a problem to solve.

> If you are imprisoned, you can keep the will, but have the free-will quite constrainedI'm not imprisoned,

How do you know that?

however I very much want the cardinality of the Real Numbers to bethe same as that of the integers, but my wish remains unfulfilled.

`Cardinality is a relative notion. All (first order) theories have an`

`enumerable model.`

Your wish can be exhausted ... outside our universe.

`Assuming comp it is "absolutely undecidable if our "universe" (if it`

`exists) is enumerable or not enumerable, but from inside it is`

`definitely not enumerable, and all we can hope is that the "outside`

`seen from inside" is constructively not enumerable, and this is the`

`case for the ideally correct Turing (Post, Church, ...) Universal`

`Machine.`

`Comp associates consciousness to computation, and computation is an`

`arithmetical concept (the proof of this is in all good textbook on`

`computer science (the best one on that topic are Boolos and Jeffrey,`

`Epstein & Carnielli, etc.). It follows also in an amazing way in`

`Matiyasevitch work. The additive+multiplicative structure of the`

`natural numbers does implement a universal dovetailer. (Probably just`

`the way primes distributed I would bet).`

`And this makes only possible to formulate the mind-body problem in`

`term of the statistic on the computations, obtained through a limit`

`based on the invariance of the first person for the computations below`

`their substitution level. If comp is false, this would still provide`

`tools to measure our degree of non-computability.`

`My point is that comp makes this amenable to computer science, which`

`is arithmetic, or take any base (universal system or language) you want.`

`I don't assume there is a physical universe, and ontologically there`

`is none, comp + arithmetic explain how to extract the beliefs in`

`stable lawful universe from a sort of statistics on which converge`

`ideally correct machines.`

`A Turing machine cannot know which computations run her, but can bet`

`that below her substitution level she is run by a sort of average on`

`an infinity of computations.`

`The mysteries are why unitary transformations?, why linearity?, etc.`

`There are results and open problems.`

`Of course, it is a different conception of "reality" than the usual`

`(Aristotelian) one (since always, except for some antic greeks during`

`a millenium, and Indian and mystic).`

Bruno

John K ClarkWe might use free-will as just will + freedom. It presupposes somestable deterministic realities, at some level.Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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