It was zero. but the evolutiometrist said me a few decades ago that my
fitness was certainly 10.
That is why I said that either this measure is flawed or alternatively, if
it is accurate (like this), it is useless (as a durable parameter to
predict something)
2013/9/10 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I think that the whole business of putting numbers to fitness and so on
> > either is flawed or alternatively if the parameter is accurate, it is
> > useless.
>
> Snow leopards are much more likely to go extinct than E. Coli
> bacteria. The latter are much less complex, so evolved complexity
> doesn't always help. I think this is an interesting fact.
>
> > In the long term anything could happen. I can have 10 children in a
> flawed
> > society that enter in decadence and war. And maybe I support the ideas
> that
> > push this society to the limits. Then most of these sons die a few
> decades
> > later by war, hunger etc. What was my fitness?.
>
> It was zero, but for most of the people that had 10 children it turned
> out to be high, so a high estimation was a reasonable one. Couldn't
> this criticism be applied to statistics in general? Pill X cures 99.9%
> of people with pneumonia, but it killed Mr. Y because he had a weird
> genetic mutation. Was it reasonable to give Mr. Y the pill?
>
> Telmo.
>
> >
> > 2013/9/10 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Russell Standish <
> li...@hpcoders.com.au>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 11:58:37AM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote:
> >> >> Hi Alberto,
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Alberto G. Corona
> >> >> <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > I think that there are real progress that can be even measured in
> >> >> > terms of
> >> >> > entropic order. That a man embodies more structure and organization
> >> >> > than a
> >> >> > bacteria is objective and measurable, and it is a product of more
> >> >> > emergent
> >> >> > levels of evolution. In concrete the human being includes the
> >> >> > eucariotic
> >> >> > level, the multicelularity level and human society level, that are
> >> >> > aggregations of coordinated individuals to achieve an individuality
> >> >> > of an
> >> >> > higher level. These levels are absent in bacteria .
> >> >>
> >> >> Ok, there's an arrow of complexification, that's undeniable. I'm not
> >> >> convinced that Darwinism alone explains that. One of the reasons for
> >> >> my scepticism is the failure of ALife models to replicate unbounded
> >> >> complexification. My favourite attempt in this domain is the Echo
> >> >> model by John Holland -- which is beautiful but didn't work in this
> >> >> sense. There's also Tierra/Avida, where you get a lot of interesting
> >> >> stuff but no unbounded complexification.
> >> >>
> >> >> One idea I heard but don't know whom to attribute to is this:
> >> >> evolutionary complexification is just an artefact of the simplicity
> of
> >> >> the initial state. The idea being that the laws of physics inherently
> >> >> contain a "pressure" towards a certain level of complexity and that
> >> >> evolution is just following the path of least resitance, in a way. It
> >> >> is then conceivable that there is a state of equilibrium that we
> >> >> haven't reached yet and that complexification will halt at some
> point.
> >> >> This is wild speculation, of course, but I like to ponder on this
> >> >> hypothesis.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I think this idea goes by the name of "modal bacter". It was, perhaps,
> >> > most
> >> > forcefully argued in Stephen Gould's 1996 book "Full House".
> >>
> >> Thanks Russell!
> >>
> >> > I suspect the idea is wrong, because it fails to explain the
> >> > exponential growth of diversity, seemingly observed by
> >> > Palaeontologists such as Michael Benton:
> >> >
> >> > @Article{Benton01,
> >> > author = {Michael J. Benton},
> >> > title = {Biodiversity on Land and in the Sea},
> >> > journal = {Geological Journal},
> >> > year = 2001,
> >> > volume = 36,
> >> > pages = {211--230}
> >> > }
> >>
> >> Ok, but I guess that depends on how we measure diversity, which is not
> >> a trivial matter. From a quick look at this paper, it seems to focus
> >> on the number of biological orders/families/genus. Suppose we were
> >> able to estimate the Kolmogorov complexity of the entire ecosystem, do
> >> you figure it would also grow exponentially?
> >>
> >> >> > What is not true is that human beings are more "adapted" than
> >> >> > bacteria. That
> >> >> > is not true. Because there is no objective and absolute measure of
> >> >> > adaptation. It ever depends on the concrete environment, and
> varies a
> >> >> > lot.
> >> >>
> >> >> Humm... I think ecologists are able to estimate the likelihood of a
> >> >> species going extinct. I'd argue that this could be taken as a
> measure
> >> >> of adaption.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > That measure is called persistence, and no, it is not really related
> to
> >> > adaption. For an adaption measure, one good possibility is Mark
> >> > Bedau's "cumulative evolutionary activity"
> >> >
> >> > @InProceedings{Bedau-etal98,
> >> > author = {Mark A. Bedau and Emile Snyder and Norman H.
> Packard},
> >> > title = {A Classification of Long-Term Evolutionary
> Dynamics},
> >> > crossref = {ALifeVI},
> >> > pages={228--237}
> >> > }
> >>
> >> I read this paper some years ago, it's a very nice one.
> >> I would say that cumulative evolutionary activity is a metric that
> >> applies to the entire evolutionary system as a whole. The article
> >> makes it depressingly clear the Holland's Echo does not match the
> >> unbounded evolution dynamics found in the fossil record. But maybe I'm
> >> missing something.
> >>
> >> In the previous discussion I was arguing that persistence could be
> >> intuitively taken as a fitness measure of some specific population or
> >> species, and I still feel that's the case. If you want to estimate the
> >> biological fitness of an individual, you could determine an analogous
> >> probability of the individual producing x viable offsprings before
> >> dying.
> >>
> >> I think.
> >>
> >> Telmo.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> >> > Principal, High Performance Coders
> >> > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> >> > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> >> >
> >> >
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