It was zero. but the evolutiometrist said me a few decades ago that my fitness was certainly 10.
That is why I said that either this measure is flawed or alternatively, if it is accurate (like this), it is useless (as a durable parameter to predict something) 2013/9/10 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I think that the whole business of putting numbers to fitness and so on > > either is flawed or alternatively if the parameter is accurate, it is > > useless. > > Snow leopards are much more likely to go extinct than E. Coli > bacteria. The latter are much less complex, so evolved complexity > doesn't always help. I think this is an interesting fact. > > > In the long term anything could happen. I can have 10 children in a > flawed > > society that enter in decadence and war. And maybe I support the ideas > that > > push this society to the limits. Then most of these sons die a few > decades > > later by war, hunger etc. What was my fitness?. > > It was zero, but for most of the people that had 10 children it turned > out to be high, so a high estimation was a reasonable one. Couldn't > this criticism be applied to statistics in general? Pill X cures 99.9% > of people with pneumonia, but it killed Mr. Y because he had a weird > genetic mutation. Was it reasonable to give Mr. Y the pill? > > Telmo. > > > > > 2013/9/10 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Russell Standish < > [email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > On Mon, Sep 09, 2013 at 11:58:37AM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> >> Hi Alberto, > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Alberto G. Corona > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > I think that there are real progress that can be even measured in > >> >> > terms of > >> >> > entropic order. That a man embodies more structure and organization > >> >> > than a > >> >> > bacteria is objective and measurable, and it is a product of more > >> >> > emergent > >> >> > levels of evolution. In concrete the human being includes the > >> >> > eucariotic > >> >> > level, the multicelularity level and human society level, that are > >> >> > aggregations of coordinated individuals to achieve an individuality > >> >> > of an > >> >> > higher level. These levels are absent in bacteria . > >> >> > >> >> Ok, there's an arrow of complexification, that's undeniable. I'm not > >> >> convinced that Darwinism alone explains that. One of the reasons for > >> >> my scepticism is the failure of ALife models to replicate unbounded > >> >> complexification. My favourite attempt in this domain is the Echo > >> >> model by John Holland -- which is beautiful but didn't work in this > >> >> sense. There's also Tierra/Avida, where you get a lot of interesting > >> >> stuff but no unbounded complexification. > >> >> > >> >> One idea I heard but don't know whom to attribute to is this: > >> >> evolutionary complexification is just an artefact of the simplicity > of > >> >> the initial state. The idea being that the laws of physics inherently > >> >> contain a "pressure" towards a certain level of complexity and that > >> >> evolution is just following the path of least resitance, in a way. It > >> >> is then conceivable that there is a state of equilibrium that we > >> >> haven't reached yet and that complexification will halt at some > point. > >> >> This is wild speculation, of course, but I like to ponder on this > >> >> hypothesis. > >> >> > >> > > >> > I think this idea goes by the name of "modal bacter". It was, perhaps, > >> > most > >> > forcefully argued in Stephen Gould's 1996 book "Full House". > >> > >> Thanks Russell! > >> > >> > I suspect the idea is wrong, because it fails to explain the > >> > exponential growth of diversity, seemingly observed by > >> > Palaeontologists such as Michael Benton: > >> > > >> > @Article{Benton01, > >> > author = {Michael J. Benton}, > >> > title = {Biodiversity on Land and in the Sea}, > >> > journal = {Geological Journal}, > >> > year = 2001, > >> > volume = 36, > >> > pages = {211--230} > >> > } > >> > >> Ok, but I guess that depends on how we measure diversity, which is not > >> a trivial matter. From a quick look at this paper, it seems to focus > >> on the number of biological orders/families/genus. Suppose we were > >> able to estimate the Kolmogorov complexity of the entire ecosystem, do > >> you figure it would also grow exponentially? > >> > >> >> > What is not true is that human beings are more "adapted" than > >> >> > bacteria. That > >> >> > is not true. Because there is no objective and absolute measure of > >> >> > adaptation. It ever depends on the concrete environment, and > varies a > >> >> > lot. > >> >> > >> >> Humm... I think ecologists are able to estimate the likelihood of a > >> >> species going extinct. I'd argue that this could be taken as a > measure > >> >> of adaption. > >> >> > >> > > >> > That measure is called persistence, and no, it is not really related > to > >> > adaption. For an adaption measure, one good possibility is Mark > >> > Bedau's "cumulative evolutionary activity" > >> > > >> > @InProceedings{Bedau-etal98, > >> > author = {Mark A. Bedau and Emile Snyder and Norman H. > Packard}, > >> > title = {A Classification of Long-Term Evolutionary > Dynamics}, > >> > crossref = {ALifeVI}, > >> > pages={228--237} > >> > } > >> > >> I read this paper some years ago, it's a very nice one. > >> I would say that cumulative evolutionary activity is a metric that > >> applies to the entire evolutionary system as a whole. The article > >> makes it depressingly clear the Holland's Echo does not match the > >> unbounded evolution dynamics found in the fossil record. But maybe I'm > >> missing something. > >> > >> In the previous discussion I was arguing that persistence could be > >> intuitively taken as a fitness measure of some specific population or > >> species, and I still feel that's the case. If you want to estimate the > >> biological fitness of an individual, you could determine an analogous > >> probability of the individual producing x viable offsprings before > >> dying. > >> > >> I think. > >> > >> Telmo. > >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > >> > Principal, High Performance Coders > >> > Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] > >> > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > >> > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups "Everything List" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >> > an email to [email protected]. > >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Everything List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Alberto. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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