Quentin,
Perhaps that assumption of unlimited bits for computation is unwarranted in
a finite universe.
In my paper I circumvent that limitation by assuming that the metaverse is
the computational source of matter.
http://vixra.org/abs/1303.0194
Richard


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Computationalism doesn't assume the universe (or any universe) at the
> start, just only arithmetical realism, it is not limited in any fashion,
> "universe"/matter is an emergent phenomena not a primary ontological
> substance.
>
>
> 2013/10/24 Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com>
>
>> How does one obtain an infinity of computations in a universe of limited
>> bits of information.
>> For example our universe is thought to be limited to 10^120 bits, the
>> so-called Lloyd Limit.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:54 AM, Quentin Anciaux <allco...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/10/24 Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>>>> everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 5:45 AM
>>>>
>>>> *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: String theory and superconductors and classical
>>>> liquids...****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 23 Oct 2013, at 02:15, Chris de Morsella wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [
>>>> mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com<everything-list@googlegroups.com>
>>>> ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 9:50 AM
>>>> *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: String theory and superconductors and classical
>>>> liquids...****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> On 22 Oct 2013, at 04:20, Russell Standish wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 02:49:40PM +1300, LizR wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> I missed that 10^-48 is rather an impressive result. Is that definitive
>>>> -****
>>>>
>>>> granularity has to be that small - or merely suggestive?****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> It does suggest the possibility of a lot of internal structure inside**
>>>> **
>>>>
>>>> "fundamental" particles!****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> On 22 October 2013 14:43, Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com> wrote:***
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> The 10^-48 meters for the upper limit on grannular size of space is
>>>> better****
>>>>
>>>> compared to the Planck Scale at 10^-35.****
>>>>
>>>> So space is smooth at least to 10^-13 Planck scales consistent with
>>>> Fermi****
>>>>
>>>> gamma ray arrival results. Gamma rays a factor of ten different in
>>>> energy****
>>>>
>>>> arrived from across the universe at the same time whereas granularity
>>>> would****
>>>>
>>>> delay one measurably.****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed this seems an important empiricial result, ruling out certain
>>>> classes of models, including, dare I say, Wolfram's NKS.
>>>>
>>>> However, it does not rule out computationalism, nor the countability
>>>> of observer moments, as I've point out many time, as space-time is
>>>> most likely a model construct, rather than actually being something
>>>> physical "out there". It is something Allen Francom bangs on about too,
>>>> which I tend to agree with, although admittedly I've gotten lost with
>>>> his Brownian Quantum Universe models.****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> >>Computationalism implies non classical granularity possible, but
>>>> quantum granularity is not excluded, with a qubit being described by some
>>>> continuum aI0> + bI1> (a and b complex).****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> The results seem to exclude any theories that rely on a classic
>>>> granularity of space time with the scale this granularity would need to be
>>>> under being pushed far below the Planck scale.****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> >>The basic ontology can be discrete (indeed arithmetical), but the
>>>> physical (and the theological) should reasonably have continuous observable
>>>> (even if those are only the frequency operators, and that *only* the
>>>> probabilities reflect the continuum. Needless to say those are open
>>>> problems).****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> >>I was thinking some recent observations tended to rule out
>>>> granularity. Hard questions, but with comp, some continuum seems to play a
>>>> role in physics (which should be a first person plural universal machines
>>>> view).****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Bruno****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> If reality arises from scale invariant equations perhaps there is no
>>>> need for a pixelated foundation to act as the smallest addressable chunks
>>>> and as the canvas upon which reality is drawn or projected as it were.
>>>> Perhaps reality really arises at it is observed ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> >>... from our points of view. That might even include backtracking,
>>>> so that the physical reality develops and bactrack when  some inconsistency
>>>> is met. Open problem with comp, but evidences exists, and it might be that
>>>> physical reality is ever growing.****
>>>>
>>>> have you understand that if the brain works like a digital machine, the
>>>> physical realitu emerges from some statistics on all computations (which
>>>> exist in arithmetic)?****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Interesting point! It seems you are suggesting that causality – to use
>>>> an Americanism colloquialism (at least amongst auto-mechanics) – may be a
>>>> little “loosey goosey”, in other words it fits well enough in order to be
>>>> fully functional, as far as the macro observer is concerned, but that
>>>> within the realm of the very small (also along the time axis) causality
>>>> becomes less rigorous and these – what would they be called?...  reality
>>>> paradox reconciliation algorithms perhaps -- re-write and “fix” transient
>>>> paradoxes, loose ends etc. in order to produce, at least on the observer’s
>>>> macro scale, the smooth perception of rock solid causality. ****
>>>>
>>>> And that as long as on the macro scale of the observer, causality
>>>> continues to operate smoothly (in so far as they are concerned at least)
>>>> then causality can be said to be operative…. Even if it needs to get fixed
>>>> up on the fly as reality manifests becoming observed reality, as long as at
>>>> the functional level its Laws stand then it would seem to all still work
>>>> out. ****
>>>>
>>>> This also fits with the mind-bending quantum scale universe –wormholes,
>>>> backwards vectors of time and the foaming sea of virtual particle pairs
>>>> popping in and out of our universe – at the femtoscale it all seems very
>>>> chaotic and non-casual (at least in the simple linear manner we experience
>>>> causality and the flow of time)  ****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> >>>>so that if it were possible to scale infinitely down it would
>>>> emerge and continue to emerge at whatever minimum scale could be achieved.
>>>> If reality is information and information can be described with equations
>>>> that are scale invariant (such as for example vector graphics versus pixel
>>>> based graphics, or fractal geometry) then a computational model can still
>>>> describe the entire universal relationship and identity sets even when
>>>> there is seemingly no end (that we have found)  to how small a point of
>>>> spacetime can be. ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> OK. But computationalism ("I am a machine)  entails the existence of at
>>>> least one observable which relies on real numbers" and is not completely
>>>> turing emulable. It might be the quantum frequency operator (describe well
>>>> by Graham and Preskill's course). ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> One could say that “I” cannot know itself without some outside
>>>> perspective upon which to reflect its being and by which to measure it. Can
>>>> a pure I – i.e. singularity – know anything about itself, even that it
>>>> exists, without introducing some outside perspective? I find that hard to
>>>> conceive of.****
>>>>
>>>> I am not so sure about the assumption that that outside perspective is
>>>> not itself also a computational thread of reality manifest and that both
>>>> the observer and the outside thing that enables the observer to have
>>>> something against which to observe are not both themselves –
>>>> non-communicating – elements of some larger equation/model/dataset. The
>>>> observer element is unaware that the observable element (which is also
>>>> unaware of any super-connection) and itself are member elements of some
>>>> super-model…****
>>>>
>>>> And so on and so forth…. This leads to a hall of mirrors, of an
>>>> ever-receding infinite series of ever larger supersets…. To which both
>>>> observer and observable belong unbeknown to each other… and so on and so
>>>> forth for each super set in turn and the set of everything that is
>>>> observable by it yet is experienced as being external to it, by it.****
>>>>
>>>> Clearly not satisfactory or ideal. Perhaps on some basic level the
>>>> universe is a circular queue lol.  ****
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that all that is strictly necessary is for the observer
>>>> to be convinced that the observable is fundamentally external to the
>>>> universe of things it considers to be itself (and symmetrically so for the
>>>> observable, which may act as actor in different roles)
>>>> As long as this condition is satisfied then the observer and the
>>>> observable are free to act as if one was truly external to the other, even
>>>> if at some super-level they are in in fact lower level elements of some
>>>> superset and transcendental model that encompasses them both (and which
>>>> leads to a hall of mirrors, unless we can admit the possibility of a
>>>> circular queue so astronomically huge that the serpent head will never ever
>>>> know that it is actually eating its own tail. )****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> >>>>So long as this does not much matter to the computational theory
>>>> itself then it is unaffected by this very fine grained measurement of the
>>>> lack of any fine structure in spacetime.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Keep in mind the difference between 1) the computationalist hypothesis
>>>> in "philosophy of mind", and 2) the hypothesis that the universe is the
>>>> product of some program.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> 2) implies 1)****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> but****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> 1) implies the negation of 2)    (this can be explained with the
>>>> thought experiment like in the UDA).****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> In particular 2) implies the negation of 2), and so is
>>>> self-contradictory.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Bruno****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> You lost me here… why does 1) negate 2)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because 1 implies matter is the result of an infinity of computations
>>> below the substitution level (there is an infinity of computations going
>>> through your current state). 2 implies matter is the result of one specific
>>> computation. 2 implies 1, 1 implies ~2 => 2 => ~2.
>>>
>>> Quentin
>>>
>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> Is it because 1) requires some external observable that is not a part
>>>> of itself****
>>>>
>>>> As seems suggested by saying 2) implies the negation of 2) ****
>>>>
>>>> Which would be the hall of mirrors of the observing entity requiring an
>>>> external observable in order to even know it exists. Unless something could
>>>> be perfectly self-referential, which I sense you doubt.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> perhaps just the sound of me flailing around J****
>>>>
>>>> Chris****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
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