So, has step 3 gone from "that's absurd" to "everyone knows that" ?!


On 1 November 2013 17:31, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 7:51 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > A) The test described where the simulation process forks 8 times and
>>> 256 copies are created and they each see a different pattern of the ball
>>> changing color
>>>
>>
>> Duplicating a brain is not enough, the intelligence has NOT forked until
>> there is something different about them, such as one remembering seeing a
>> red ball and the other remember seeing a green ball, only then do they
>> fork. It was the decision made by somebody or something outside the
>> simulation to make sure all 256 saw a difference sequence of colored balls
>> that created 256 distinct minds. And to a simulated physicist a decision
>> made outside the simulation would be indistinguishable from being random,
>> that is to say the simulated laws of physics could not be used to figure
>> out what that decision would be.
>>
>> > B) A test where the AI is not duplicated but instead a random number
>>> generator (controlled entirely outside the simulation) determines whether
>>> the ball changes to red or blue with 50% probability 8 times* Then *the
>>> AI (or AIs) could not say whether test A occurred first or test B occurred
>>> first.
>>>
>>> Both A and B are identical in that the intelligence doesn't know what it
>> is going to see next; but increasingly convoluted  thought experiments are
>> not needed to demonstrate that everyday fact. The only difference is that
>> in A lots of copies are made of the intelligence and in B they are not; but
>> as the intelligence would have no way of knowing if a copy had been made of
>> itself or not nor would it have any way of knowing if it was the original
>> or the copy, subjectively it doesn't matter if A or B is true.
>>
>> So yes, subjectively the intelligence would have no way of knowing if A
>> was true or B, or to put it another way subjectively it would make no
>> difference.
>>
>
> Thank you for answering. I think we are in agreement.
>
>
>>
>> > I reformulated the UDA in a way that does not use any pronouns at all,
>>> and it doesn't matter if you consider the question from one view or from
>>> all the views, the conclusion is the same.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, the conclusion is the same, and that is the not very profound
>> conclusion that you never know what you're going to see next, and Bruno's
>> grand discovery of First Person Indeterminacy is just regular old dull as
>> dishwater indeterminacy first discovered by Og the caveman. After the big
>> buildup it's a bit of a letdown actually.
>>
>
> Well there is one difference: the entire protocol is explained to the AI,
> it knows exactly what will happen in each of the 256 possibilities, but
> from inside the simulation, it is no different than had the sequence of
> colors been chosen completely randomly.
>
> Also, you are mistaken if you think this is the grand conclusion of the
> UDA, it is only one small (but necessary) step in the reasoning.  If you
> want to get to the grand conclusion you need only continue on to the next
> steps.  It seems you have grasped the point of step 3 and are in agreement
> that subjective indeterminacy can arise in a fully understood and
> deterministic process.
>
> I'll re-post the link for your convenience.  You are less than 2-3 pages
> away from finishing reading the UDA:
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL.htm
>
> Jason
>
>
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