I mean, the subsidies are for solar energy production.
2013/11/15 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
> The fantastic amount of subsidies to the solar energy (That not even
> Germany will have enough budget to pay them) not only have destroyed the
> familiar and industrial economy with such incredible amount of taxes. They
> also *have stopped further solar cell research* in the countries where
> these subsidies have been granted.
> I leave as an exercise to figure out why that has happened. It is quite
> easy. But I guess that some people here well versed in QM and cosmology
> will be unable to figure it out.
> 2013/11/15 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>> Hi Russell,
>> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Russell Standish
>> <li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:09:18PM +0100, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Russell Standish
>> >> <li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>> >> > The good news is that the figures I've seen is that its not such a
>> >> > tremendous cost after all.
>> >> I am very interested in this. Could you be more specific? How can this
>> >> be? Was there some breakthrough in sustainable sources that increased
>> >> their efficiency?
>> > The following is an article dealing with the economics in Australia of
>> > PV vs coal fired stations
>> > And here is one for wind power:
>> > These figure also do not include the existing carbon price of $20 per
>> > Existing fossil fuel generators will continue for a while, though, of
>> > course, particularly as renewables have not yet solved the baseload
>> > supply problem. Vanadium batteries may be good for that.
>> Thanks for this. I hope it works.
>> Reading the articles I have a feeling that this is more related to
>> banks fearing investments in non-clean energy that could be subject to
>> increasingly high taxes -- even though it appears that the Australian
>> conservatives are not inclined to do that. I have no doubt that the
>> technology is improving and I hope it does, but I would be more
>> convinced if they addressed the hard numbers on the energy efficiency,
>> sans current economical incentives, be they regulation or market
>> conditions. Because I believe that those are the ones that will count
>> in the long term.
>> Part of the reason for my worry is that I saw heavy subsidising of
>> wind farms destroy the industry in my home country (Portugal). The
>> energy bill there is now about 60% taxes, to maintain the wind farms.
>> Keeping your house warm in the winter is too expensive, even for the
>> upper middle class.
>> >> >> > Obviously fossil fuel will run out anyway, so even without
>> climate change
>> >> >> > we'd have to do something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, but that something we have to do is very different depending on
>> >> >> whether or not we have to cut CO2 emissions and, more importantly,
>> >> >> of the path leads to immense human suffering.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > The point is whether we do something, or do nothing, energy costs
>> >> > _will_ rise. Yes this _will_ lead to human suffering, either way. We
>> >> > can either choose to pay a bit more now, and have less costs later,
>> >> > pay less now, and have steeper rises later.
>> >> I agree that energy costs will rise and this is a very serious problem
>> >> that we need to face. If you don't have to worry about CO2 so much,
>> >> it's easier and less painful -- the more expensive fossil fuels
>> >> become, the more economic incentive there will be for renewable
>> >> sources. In this scenario we can retain economic freedom, which is
>> >> highly correlated with prosperity.
>> >> > A 10 or 20% energy cost increase to hasten decarbonisation by a
>> >> > will save many billions of dollars of geo-engineering, or
>> >> > restoration down the track.
>> >> Are you aware of geo-engineering proposals that would be very cheap?
>> > Nothing earth-scale will be cheap, or easy to understand all the
>> > consequences. Ultimately, it will need to come down to a cost-benefit
>> > analysis, factoring in the unknowns as some kind of risk factor.
>> But if the technology break-throughs are real, we don't even have to
>> worry all that much, maybe. There will be a lot of money to be made in
>> moving to sustainable sources. Pushes for regulation make me suspect
>> that the technology is not there yet. In which case I agree with you.
>> >> > Seems like quite an astute investment to
>> >> > me. Our current conservative government, alas, doesn't seem to think
>> >> > so.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Then there are the geo-engineering ideas that John mentioned. They
>> >> >> appear to be ignored. This makes the entire thing start to smell a
>> >> >> of religious moralism.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Telmo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > They're not being ignored. But they do require a lot more small-scale
>> >> > research to understand their risk-benefit tradeoff.
>> >> I never see this as part of the discussion. I'm very skeptical that
>> >> this is being seriously pursued.
>> > amongst many other similar experiments.
>> > I can see why certain environmental movements have put geoengineering
>> > off the table for political reasons, but this doesn't mean it
>> > shouldn't be researched theoretically, and experimented practically on
>> > a small scale so that we better understand the costs, efficacy and
>> > risks if (or more likely when) it becomes a necessary part of the
>> > total solution.
>> Ok, we agree.
>> > As for carbon pricing, which is the current hot topic in Australia. As
>> > a philosophical point, I am in favour of some sort of carbon pricing,
>> > but I'm not enough of an economist and energy technologist to know the
>> > ideal timing for its introduction, nor the amount of the pricing. The
>> > current fixed price scheme we have amounts to an increase of 10-20% on
>> > fuel costs, which I would have thought to be "too little, too late". I
>> > don't know how the price of $20 per tonne was arrived at. I do know
>> > that the Eurpoean market price is even lower, at around $8 per tonne,
>> > so I can't see economics providing much of a push.
>> > The problem is that when our current newly elected government was in
>> > opposition, they went around denying that there is even a problem. I
>> > wouldn't have minded if they kept the political discussion to whether
>> > a carbon price was appropriate right now, or questioned the economic
>> > modelling used to set the price, or whether it should be set by a
>> > market mechanism. Instead they denied the scientific consensus,
>> > labelled the carbon price as a "tax", and stood on a platform of
>> > "scrap the tax", which will be one of the first bills they will
>> > introduce in parliament in the next week. It makes me mad -
>> > effectively they have shut down much needed debate on how best we should
>> > address climate change, and resorted to slogaineering and ideology.
>> > I just hope that the opposition and independent parties act to block
>> > this behaviour, and hopefully return discussion back to issues of
>> > policy, not science, which is the proper scope for a parliament. But
>> > we shall see... At least what Australia does is unlikely to bugger up
>> > the whole world, we're too small for that.
>> > --
>> > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> > Principal, High Performance Coders
>> > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>> > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>> > --
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