On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2013, at 10:27, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>> On 18 Nov 2013, at 18:13, meekerdb wrote:
>>> On 11/18/2013 1:46 AM, LizR wrote:
>>> On 18 November 2013 22:41, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:02 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> This is quite simple. Markets ignore the commons, hence a free market
>>>>> solution can't - or is highly unlikely - to work.
>>>> Yes, but this is circular. You're saying that the market cannot work
>>>> for things that you do not allow to be part of the market. The
>>>> government has to exist, otherwise how is the government to exist?
>>> It isn't part of the market because no one wants it to be, not because no
>>> one allows it to be.
>>>>> No one is going to clean
>>>>> up the commons, just as they didn't in medieval villages, because there
>>>>> is
>>>>> no incentive for an individual, or a specific group, to do so.
>>>> The medieval times were not exactly a period of free market, so this
>>>> would be an example on how government can solve things... or not. In
>>>> reality, many of the things we learned in high school about medieval
>>>> times are myths or gross simplifications
>>> Not the tragedy of the commons, however. But even if it was the logic
>>> would
>>> hold.
>>>>> The tragedy
>>>>> of the commons is one reason to have governments, because everyone
>>>>> wants
>>>>> something done that no one will do "off their own bat" - but they are
>>>>> prepared to chip in a donation towards the government doing it, or
>>>>> organising somone else to do it.
>>>> If they are prepared to chip in a donation there is no problem. If
>>>> there is money to be made, the free market will be glad to oblige. You
>>>> don't seem prepared to call things by its names: the idea of
>>>> government is that, when people are not prepared to chip in, they are
>>>> forced to do so, ultimately by violent means. The paradox here is that
>>>> you are trusting a small group of people with this coercive power and
>>>> then expecting this small group and power asymmetry to result in more
>>>> altruism.
>>>> Again, reality is complex. Current forms of democracy would not work
>>>> if implemented in previous cultures, because people would not accept
>>>> the social norms that come with them. You cannot police everything or
>>>> even 1% of what's going on. Systems work because they become stable.
>>>> This stability does not come from consent (I was born into this system
>>>> and never consented to it, neither did you). It comes from the
>>>> emergence of sets of incentives. I disagree with many laws that I'm
>>>> not going to break because the personal cost to me would be too great.
>>>> Suppose I decide I don't trust the government with my tax money, so I
>>>> decide to take it instead and give it directly to organisations that I
>>>> deem worthy: hospitals, schools, research centres and so on. I would
>>>> end up in jail for "chipping in". In fact government robs me of my
>>>> freedom to chip in, because they take all of my "chip in" money and
>>>> then some, and then give it to banks.
>>>> Incentives also emerge from free markets, importantly the incentive to
>>>> be nice to the people you trade with. Where there are more trade
>>>> routes there are less wars. If you are polluting the air I breath you
>>>> are being hostile towards me, and I am less likely to want to enter a
>>>> transaction with you. But these delicate balances can't arise under
>>>> coercion and market distortion.
>>>>> And if no one does it, we all end up worse
>>>>> off (perhaps fatally so in this case). It ain't rocket science,
>>>>> although
>>>>> game theory has something to say about it.
>>>> Prisoner dilemma scenarios don't magically disappear once you
>>>> introduce coercion. In fact, I argue that they multiply.
>>> You seem to be arguing against a straw man here.  I explained why the
>>> free
>>> market can't fix the tragedy of the commons. You haven't answered my
>>> point.
>>> And he's so concerned with anti-government straw men that he hasn't
>>> noticed
>>> that a market requires government (including coercion) to define
>>> ownership
>>> and punish fraud.  Without government you couldn't own any more stuff
>>> than
>>> you could carry and defend by force of arms.
>>> I agree with Brent. Government can be the best thing a democracy can
>>> have,
>>> ... until bandits get power and perverts the elections and the state
>>> power
>>> separations (and get important control on the media, etc.).
>> But how to create a system that prevents the bandits from getting there?
> This is a bit like: how to create an organism immune against disease?

I see it like this too, and I feel Nature is a good inspiration here.
The immune system doesn't use centralised control either.

> There are no general rules. The US constitution was rather good,

I admire the US constitution too. In fact, my political position is
essentially to follow it (although I like to imagine possibilities for
peaceful world with further increases in freedom).

> but has
> been violated repeatedly, perhaps since the assassination of Kennedy or
> after, or even before; it is complex.
> I do have ideas, including the vote on programs, replacing the vote on
> persons. Maybe we should throw out the politics as job.
> Politicians would be social workers, implementing only ideas which would
> have won the election. Everyone would have a task in the state, for a period
> of two years. It would be a social duty, with a reasonable salary, never
> extending two years.
> Lobbying should be non financial. Except for the salary, money should not be
> given to politicians, ever. Only ideas, reasoning, suggestions, but never
> money.
> Corporatism should be regulated though organism watching to the benefits of
> the general population. Monopole should be avoided.
> Then we learn. No prohibition. The marijuana prohibition seems to have been
> a Trojan horse for the bandits.
> Also, a government should be accounted for the success or not of what it
> implements, and this should be judged by an independent court. Cf Milton
> Freedman on the drug war who makes the remark that when a private society
> failed on some project, the project is quickly abandoned, where the
> government keep expanding it.
> If there are suspicion that an "independent court" is not independent, we
> must have a system of appeal to different courts.
> Politicians should be dismissed once and for all in case of corruption. No
> need of jail, but just the rule that we cannot trust someone having lied
> once in the political matter (the private life of the politician does not
> matter, only its work in politics, ...).
> We should never allowed exception rules: principles like the human right
> must be considered as fundamental and without any exception. (thus no NDAA,
> nor patriot acts, even during war).
> We should invest in a good education system, helping people to think by
> themselves, and honor the *research* of truth.
> The federal level must be simplified, (few basic laws, and few ministers)
> and differences and variations in local politics should be encouraged.

We are essentially in agreement.

> Of course, the real question today, is: how to get rid of the bandits once
> they are there?

They had a big victory in the last few years. With total surveillance,
the democratic system becomes officially a joke. The information
asymmetry between the inside and the outside is so great that no
outsider can get in. I don't think they could for a long time, but now
there are no doubts. I don't understand how the "nothing to hide" crew
doesn't realise this.

> Well, that is a very difficult one. We have to denounce them by all means,
> and try to vote (assuming this works still a little bit) for different
> people, not affiliated to the first one, trying to avoid the demagogical
> opportunists.

You will be alone against a see of people that votes on tribes. The
bandits have that covered too... But I hope you're right.

> If the voting system is too much rotten, we have to run away,

This is a fundamental right that's missing, in my opinion. The right
to go away. Without it, government is violence. With it, there is real

> or go in the streets, or fight, and resist.

I think you just gained a few extra followers for the everything list,
but they will probably not show up in the stats. :)

> We must understand that when a government use its authority and power to
> fail a citizen, that is as grave as an adult who use his authority and power
> to rape a child. The power and authority are *quite* aggravating
> circumstances.

Yes, this is a very important point.


> Bruno
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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