On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>wrote:

> What I say is that atheism is NOT an option.
>

Ok, you appear to be alluding to something deeper than the need to overcome
prisoner dilemmas.

I recognise that there is a need to put something at the root of the
ontology, and also a need for meaning. Without meaning life becomes very
depressing -- unless one is so absorbed by some task that one doesn't even
think about such things. That is a blissful feeling, that I can get from
coding, sometimes. Which leads me to this question: do you figure that
practitioners of Zen Buddhism still have a deity?

Telmo.


>
> Not only because Chesterton said that anyone who does nor believe in God
> will en up believing in anything, but also because that is in the structure
> of the human mind as is know by personal introspection (the greek
> philosophers), historical experiience (any religion-less community that
> lasted?)  and by game theoretical+ evolutionary  reasons that i tried to
> explain here.
>
> At the moment that you reject a deity, you accept other. The religion of
> atheists is quite similar to a primitive religion because religion emerges
> in its primitive form when you reject your own.
>
> But the human mind can not work with impersonal myths. Whenever impersonal
> myths are created, exist also personal entities that  become myts. Normally
> the ones that created these myths of fighted for them.
>
> The most primitive form is the cult to the personality, that is the cult
> to a living god-man. Who was the leader of the tribu, whose actions are
> mtified and celebrated. Of course this is the worst of all kinds of
> religions. That happens ever when a society tried to establish itself in
> abstract principles, being them comunism, equality, progress, rule of law,
> evolution etc.
>
> As an example, after the cult to Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Mao,  Kim Jon II,
> Castro.. and many others.. the modern cult to Darwin
>
> http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pdf
>
> Incidentally the reason why the cult to Lincoln, Jefferson etc is so weak
> is because the American constitution IS a constitution under a personal God.
>
>
>
> 2013/12/2 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Alberto G. Corona 
>> <agocor...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say.
>>>
>>
>> Ok, but here I think "government" is meant as some pre-existing
>> complexity. While the laws of physics are simpler than their outcome, the
>> christian god is more complex that its outcome. And, rephrasing what Liz
>> said, we never found any evidence of higher complexity downstream.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of
>>> society,  and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau,
>>> Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological
>>> (atheism is the religion of the state).
>>>
>>> The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian
>>> phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is
>>> initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society.
>>>
>>> But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth.
>>> But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there
>>> is a sovereingh lawyers. "The people" in "democracy" is such lawyer say the
>>> modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases,
>>> something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the
>>> purpose of social cooperation.
>>>
>>> So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he
>>> reject the given ones, he invent its own.
>>>
>>
>> I would say that it's society that can't live without myths, and we can't
>> live without society. Since we have no agency over society but we depend on
>> it for survival, we must be part of a super-organism. Some of our behaviour
>> has to be molecule-like, but our human minds want to feel they are in
>> control. So we post-rationalise. We haven't found a way for society to work
>> without dominance, so we rationalise this dominance in increasingly
>> sophisticated ways. In democracy, the dominated are accomplices in keeping
>> the illusion, because they want to reap the benefits of being subservient
>> without having to signal subservience. The voting ritual makes this
>> possible. Breaking such illusions is a very dangerous proposition, as we've
>> seen in Europe in the first half or the 20th century (early republicanism
>> broke the monarchy illusion but quickly degrading into fascism -- fascism
>> had more powerful binding myths to offer, and a lesson had to be learned).
>> Of course, as you point out, republics come with a myth set of their own.
>>
>> Modern law is a very sophisticated, if perverse system. Many laws are not
>> meant to be followed. They are used to post-rationalise punishment for
>> breaking unwritten rules that nobody wants to acknowledge but all want to
>> enforce.
>>
>> Telmo.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/1 LizR <lizj...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I
>>>> would say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  How can a grown man be an atheist ?
>>>>>
>>>>> An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can
>>>>> function without some form of government.
>>>>>
>>>>> How silly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
>>>>> See my Leibniz site at
>>>>>  http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alberto.
>>>
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>
>
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