On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>wrote:
> What I say is that atheism is NOT an option. > Ok, you appear to be alluding to something deeper than the need to overcome prisoner dilemmas. I recognise that there is a need to put something at the root of the ontology, and also a need for meaning. Without meaning life becomes very depressing -- unless one is so absorbed by some task that one doesn't even think about such things. That is a blissful feeling, that I can get from coding, sometimes. Which leads me to this question: do you figure that practitioners of Zen Buddhism still have a deity? Telmo. > > Not only because Chesterton said that anyone who does nor believe in God > will en up believing in anything, but also because that is in the structure > of the human mind as is know by personal introspection (the greek > philosophers), historical experiience (any religion-less community that > lasted?) and by game theoretical+ evolutionary reasons that i tried to > explain here. > > At the moment that you reject a deity, you accept other. The religion of > atheists is quite similar to a primitive religion because religion emerges > in its primitive form when you reject your own. > > But the human mind can not work with impersonal myths. Whenever impersonal > myths are created, exist also personal entities that become myts. Normally > the ones that created these myths of fighted for them. > > The most primitive form is the cult to the personality, that is the cult > to a living god-man. Who was the leader of the tribu, whose actions are > mtified and celebrated. Of course this is the worst of all kinds of > religions. That happens ever when a society tried to establish itself in > abstract principles, being them comunism, equality, progress, rule of law, > evolution etc. > > As an example, after the cult to Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jon II, > Castro.. and many others.. the modern cult to Darwin > > http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/ep055269.pdf > > Incidentally the reason why the cult to Lincoln, Jefferson etc is so weak > is because the American constitution IS a constitution under a personal God. > > > > 2013/12/2 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Alberto G. Corona >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Government by the Rule of Law (of physics) I would say. >>> >> >> Ok, but here I think "government" is meant as some pre-existing >> complexity. While the laws of physics are simpler than their outcome, the >> christian god is more complex that its outcome. And, rephrasing what Liz >> said, we never found any evidence of higher complexity downstream. >> >> >>> >>> There is much much in the relation between the republican idea of >>> society, and pragmatical atheism of the contractualists Hobbes, rousseau, >>> Locke (let the state work without religion), that later became ideological >>> (atheism is the religion of the state). >>> >>> The idea of ruling society by laws was probably inspired by newtonian >>> phisics (but not by newtonian theology) and the market economy. what is >>> initially science or experience can become a myth that organize a society. >>> >>> But this gobernment by rules is a hopeful ideal. In other words, a myth. >>> But a myth necessary for the state religion. Whenever there are laws there >>> is a sovereingh lawyers. "The people" in "democracy" is such lawyer say the >>> modern wishfulthinker. That is nothing but another two myths. hypostases, >>> something that does not exist bu in the mind by an effort of faith for the >>> purpose of social cooperation. >>> >>> So to summarize, the human mind can not live withouth myths. If he >>> reject the given ones, he invent its own. >>> >> >> I would say that it's society that can't live without myths, and we can't >> live without society. Since we have no agency over society but we depend on >> it for survival, we must be part of a super-organism. Some of our behaviour >> has to be molecule-like, but our human minds want to feel they are in >> control. So we post-rationalise. We haven't found a way for society to work >> without dominance, so we rationalise this dominance in increasingly >> sophisticated ways. In democracy, the dominated are accomplices in keeping >> the illusion, because they want to reap the benefits of being subservient >> without having to signal subservience. The voting ritual makes this >> possible. Breaking such illusions is a very dangerous proposition, as we've >> seen in Europe in the first half or the 20th century (early republicanism >> broke the monarchy illusion but quickly degrading into fascism -- fascism >> had more powerful binding myths to offer, and a lesson had to be learned). >> Of course, as you point out, republics come with a myth set of their own. >> >> Modern law is a very sophisticated, if perverse system. Many laws are not >> meant to be followed. They are used to post-rationalise punishment for >> breaking unwritten rules that nobody wants to acknowledge but all want to >> enforce. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/1 LizR <[email protected]> >>> >>>> Because there are no obvious signs of government in the universe, I >>>> would say. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2 December 2013 10:29, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How can a grown man be an atheist ? >>>>> >>>>> An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can >>>>> function without some form of government. >>>>> >>>>> How silly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >>>>> See my Leibniz site at >>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> <http://www.avast.com/> >>>>> >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>>> Antivirus<http://www.avast.com/>protection is active. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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