You explained it yourself: ' > so of course it is impossible for us to imagine what it might mean, '. Trying to answer it would be just pretending to be 'all-wise' and consequently making a fool of myself :)
Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:13 PM, Jesse Mazer <[email protected]> wrote: > The first question involves a logical contradiction--the statement "God is > perfect" being simultaneously true and false--so of course it is impossible > for us to imagine what it might mean, and since I think the laws of logic are > unchangeable I think it's a completely meaningless description. But if you > believe God can change the laws of logic, you should believe God can change > the logical rule known as the "law of noncontradiction" ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction ) which says a > proposition cannot be both true and false. > > On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: >> I agree that perfect knowledge and command of logic and math and et al are >> necessary attributes of God. >> When I say God is consistent, I mean that God is so perfect in His plan that >> He doesn't even have any need to change His decree or methods. However, God >> reserves the power and the right to do what He wills, when He wills, and >> that may appear imperfect to us mortals within our limited senses and >> knowledge. >> However, Jesse, I won't try to answer the following questions, as that would >> be pure speculation. I'm not even sure if I understand the first question >> properly. >> >> Samiya >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 02-Dec-2013, at 6:38 PM, Jesse Mazer <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> But consistency is itself a logical notion. If you think God can change the >>> laws of logic, can God make it so that he is both perfect and not-perfect, >>> with "perfect" having exactly the same meaning in both cases? >>> >>> Note that believing God cannot change logic need not imply logic is >>> "independent" of God for theists, they may say that logic is grounded in >>> God's eternal "understanding", to use the same word as Leibniz. So perfect >>> understanding of logic and math can be seen as necessary attributes of God, >>> along with other more specifically theistic attributes like perfection, >>> omnipotence, omniscience etc. Do you believe that God has necessary >>> attributes that God cannot change, so for example God cannot make a new >>> being more powerful than Himself since this would violate omnipotence? >>> >>> On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: >>> I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in >>> every possible meaning of the word. >>> I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers and >>> theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the >>> laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or any >>> other "necessary" truths, ...' >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? >>>> >>>> Making It consistent is not really limiting it. >>>> Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to >>>> inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. >>>> (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of >>>> God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, >>>>> and the Final Goal. >>>> >>>> OK. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Everything is as God wills and allows it to be. >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On 02-Dec-2013, at 4:13 AM, Jesse Mazer <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Most theistic philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue >>>>>> agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not >>>>>> have the power to alter them (or any other "necessary" truths, which for >>>>>> theists might include things like moral rules, or qualities of God such >>>>>> as omnipotence). Do you think the Mandelbrot set, or any other piece of >>>>>> pure mathematics, functions without a government, or are mathematical >>>>>> rules themselves a form of government even if God didn't create them? >>>>>> Certainly most atheists now think the universe follows mathematical >>>>>> laws, and one could even adopt Max Tegmark's idea and speculate that our >>>>>> universe is just another part of the uncreated Platonic realm of >>>>>> mathematical forms. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sunday, December 1, 2013, Roger Clough wrote: >>>>>> How can a grown man be an atheist ? >>>>>> >>>>>> An atheist is a person who believes that the universe can >>>>>> function without some form of government. >>>>>> >>>>>> How silly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >>>>>> See my Leibniz site at >>>>>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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