but priginally you responded to my comment about God and logic by saying "This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God?" which I took to mean you were expressing a definite disagreement with the idea that God was "limited" to acts consistent with the laws of logic. Did I misunderstand, and you actually did not mean to suggest any speculations about whether God can change the laws of logic?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: > No, I just do not want to speculate about something I really have not > given much thought to or can contribute by 'thinking' on it. The little > that I've read of philosophers and theologians, discourages me as they only > seem to go round and round in their efforts to make sense of it. > > Samiya > > On 03-Dec-2013, at 12:28 AM, Jesse Mazer > <[email protected]<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '[email protected]');>> > wrote: > > But you do make the definite claim that God can change the laws of logic, > which would include the power to get rid of the law of noncontradiction, > no? Or has this discussion made you less certain about whether this would > be within God's power or not? > > On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: > > You explained it yourself: ' > > so of course it is impossible for us to imagine what it might mean, '. > > Trying to answer it would be just pretending to be 'all-wise' and > consequently making a fool of myself :) > > Samiya > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:13 PM, Jesse Mazer <[email protected]> wrote: > > The first question involves a logical contradiction--the statement "God is > perfect" being simultaneously true and false--so of course it is impossible > for us to imagine what it might mean, and since I think the laws of logic > are unchangeable I think it's a completely meaningless description. But if > you believe God can change the laws of logic, you should believe God can > change the logical rule known as the "law of noncontradiction" ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction ) which says a > proposition cannot be both true and false. > > On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: > > I agree that perfect knowledge and command of logic and math and et al are > necessary attributes of God. > When I say God is consistent, I mean that God is so perfect in His plan > that He doesn't even have any need to change His decree or methods. > However, God reserves the power and the right to do what He wills, when He > wills, and that may appear imperfect to us mortals within our limited > senses and knowledge. > However, Jesse, I won't try to answer the following questions, as that > would be pure speculation. I'm not even sure if I understand the first > question properly. > > Samiya > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 02-Dec-2013, at 6:38 PM, Jesse Mazer <[email protected]> wrote: > > But consistency is itself a logical notion. If you think God can change > the laws of logic, can God make it so that he is both perfect and > not-perfect, with "perfect" having exactly the same meaning in both cases? > > Note that believing God cannot change logic need not imply logic is > "independent" of God for theists, they may say that logic is grounded in > God's eternal "understanding", to use the same word as Leibniz. So perfect > understanding of logic and math can be seen as necessary attributes of God, > along with other more specifically theistic attributes like > perfection, omnipotence, omniscience etc. Do you believe that God has > necessary attributes that God cannot change, so for example God cannot make > a new being more powerful than Himself since this would violate omnipotence? > > On Monday, December 2, 2013, Samiya Illias wrote: > > I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect in > every possible meaning of the word. > I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic philosophers > and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create > the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to alter them (or > any other "necessary" truths, ...' > > Samiya > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 02-Dec-2013, at 3:01 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 02 Dec 2013, at 06:11, Samiya Illias wrote: > > This is strange! What 'theism' it is if it limits God? > > > Making It consistent is not really limiting it. > > Accepting the idea that God can be inconsistent quickly leads to > inconsistent theology, which is the fuel of atheism. > (that is why atheists defends all the time the most inconsistent notion of > God, and deter people to search by themselves in the field). > > > > We believe that God is the Reality, the Prime Originator, the Sustainer, > and the Final Goal. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, > 'cvml', 'everything-list%[email protected]');>. > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', > '[email protected]');> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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