So these guys are equating God with the laws of physics, or maybe the origin of the laws of physics?
On 7 December 2013 00:07, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: > > *Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run* > > JOHN-- >Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's universe] > coming from a > staunch Republican conservative govt minimizer. > > Perhaps an atheist is just someone who thinks something the size of the whole > universe can > operate on its own laws without a lot of direct interference? > > ROGER- According to my understanding of Leibniz and the Bible, after God > had created the > universe in six days, he wrote a computer program called the > "pre-established harmony" > on the seventh to run the universe forever onward and rested. He's still > resting. > > In this program God allowed for free will and knew what we would do but > did not cause > us to do so. Luther believed that our free will only applied to everyday > affairs, but > in matters of salvation (good or bad) he chose for us. > > Note that God is in what Leibniz called the world of necessary logic, > which is timeless > (eternal), so that knowing before-hand is simply part of God's nature. > > > > JOHN > --->Also interesting. The universe does indeed seem to operate on some pretty > iron-clad laws, > and there are some who suspect that perhaps that's because the only way to > have a > > > universe that will support/create life is to have almost exactly the laws > (and special constants) > that govern our universe. > > ROGER-- That would be the pre-established harmony. Nonliving entities > move by deterministic or "efficient" causation, but > life does not operate by such iron-clad laws, it operates by what > Aristotle called > "final causation", which means it is goal-oriented and purposeful. > It therefore has to have innate intelligence. > > JOHN- > Personally, although I think the idea of a personal God is important, > > I do have concerns as to why an omnipotent, universal overseer who has > already so cleverly > > tuned the universe to such perfection would need to continually need to tweak > things locally. > Seems very much like we need God far more than HE needs us. > > ROGER - The "tweaking" is indeed local, but it has already been programmed > into the > pre-established harmony. > > JOHN - > >So, in order to consider a personal God, it seems to me that the real reason > >for locality is > > more about how "HE" wants me to become more like HIS ideal, and is offering > opportunities. > > ROGER- No, we have free will, at least to some extent. > > JOHN-- > Given that HE is out of time and space, that is a pretty neat trick, and I > find it highly unlikely > > that any of HIS creations are at all cognizant of how or why or what HIS > purposes are. > > But, I think the Universe itself is understandable, and probably exists as > one of the simplest > sets of laws that can work. > > ROGER-- Out of time and space means in eternity. The world isn't all > law-governed (deterministic), > for both man and nature have some degree of unpredictability, but this has > been pre-programmed into > Leibniz's pre-established harmony. > > JOHN- There is really already a lot of evidence to support that idea. And > > some evidence to support the idea that our whole universe is a tiny part of > "everything." Already, > > it is pretty clear that most people really still have no concept of the scale > of our little visible part > > of "our" universe, either in time or space. Most never even look up to see > that there are actually > > more stars (and star systems) than there are grains of sand on every beach in > our entire world - > > and that our entire world is less than a dust mote, even within our solar > system, > much less in the real immensity of space and time. > > > ------------------------------ > <http://www.avast.com/> > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > Antivirus<http://www.avast.com/>protection is active. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
