Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run
JOHN-- >Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's universe] coming
staunch Republican conservative govt minimizer.
Perhaps an atheist is just someone who thinks something the size of the whole
operate on its own laws without a lot of direct interference?
ROGER- According to my understanding of Leibniz and the Bible, after God had
universe in six days, he wrote a computer program called the "pre-established
on the seventh to run the universe forever onward and rested. He's still
In this program God allowed for free will and knew what we would do but did not
us to do so. Luther believed that our free will only applied to everyday
in matters of salvation (good or bad) he chose for us.
Note that God is in what Leibniz called the world of necessary logic, which is
(eternal), so that knowing before-hand is simply part of God's nature.
JOHN --->Also interesting. The universe does indeed seem to operate on some
pretty iron-clad laws,
and there are some who suspect that perhaps that's because the only way to have
universe that will support/create life is to have almost exactly the laws (and
that govern our universe.
ROGER-- That would be the pre-established harmony. Nonliving entities
move by deterministic or "efficient" causation, but
life does not operate by such iron-clad laws, it operates by what Aristotle
"final causation", which means it is goal-oriented and purposeful.
It therefore has to have innate intelligence.
JOHN- Personally, although I think the idea of a personal God is important,
I do have concerns as to why an omnipotent, universal overseer who has already
tuned the universe to such perfection would need to continually need to tweak
Seems very much like we need God far more than HE needs us.
ROGER - The "tweaking" is indeed local, but it has already been programmed into
JOHN - >So, in order to consider a personal God, it seems to me that the real
reason for locality is
more about how "HE" wants me to become more like HIS ideal, and is offering
ROGER- No, we have free will, at least to some extent.
JOHN-- Given that HE is out of time and space, that is a pretty neat trick, and
I find it highly unlikely
that any of HIS creations are at all cognizant of how or why or what HIS
But, I think the Universe itself is understandable, and probably exists as one
of the simplest
sets of laws that can work.
ROGER-- Out of time and space means in eternity. The world isn't all
for both man and nature have some degree of unpredictability, but this has been
Leibniz's pre-established harmony.
JOHN- There is really already a lot of evidence to support that idea. And
some evidence to support the idea that our whole universe is a tiny part of
it is pretty clear that most people really still have no concept of the scale
of our little visible part
of "our" universe, either in time or space. Most never even look up to see that
there are actually
more stars (and star systems) than there are grains of sand on every beach in
our entire world -
and that our entire world is less than a dust mote, even within our solar
much less in the real immensity of space and time.
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