2013/12/10 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

>
> On 10 Dec 2013, at 10:40, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
>  It seems to me that your invocation of platonism is wrong. For Plato the
>> reality is a shadow of the perfect world of ideas, universals that we can
>> "remember" by anamnesis.
>>
>
> OK.
>
>
>
>
>> But for you reality is a partial dream,
>>
>
> Not at all.
> Only physical reality. And it is not "one" dream, it is what result from
> an infinity of dreams, by the FPI on arithmetic.
> (FPI = first person indeterminacy, *on* the complete UD emulation in
> arithmetic).
>
>
>
>
>  but coherent or "robust" product of the aleatory  Dovetailer Machine,
>>
>
> + The FPI.
>
>
>
>
>  and sometimes we have access to that nonsense by our dreams and
>> hallucinations.
>>
>
> By comp, and the FPI on all computations going through our comp state
> (which exists theoretically, as we work in the comp theory).
>
>
>
>
>> So in fact the reality, as the the platonic realm is just the opposite of
>> the one of the UDA: it is full of structure and perfect, while the UDA
>> produces every kind of thing possible.
>>
>
> Only computations. Computer science shows this to be a complex
> mathematical structure, structured differently from the different points of
> view of a machines, which themselves obeys the non trivial laws of
> self-reference. It is full of structure.
>
> Where that structure come from? I see all computatons possible coming from
the UDA, some of them with structure, some of them do not. It is isomorphic
to some subset of the mathematical multiverse or the boltzmann aleatory
structures.Or can be emulated by UDA. The only additional merit is the use
of few initial assumptions. But to emulate everithing possible with few
assumptions is not a merit IMHO. I´m not trying to be harsh. I just want to
put  my impressions in words. The platoninc world of ideas is then ONE of
the many possible infinite whoknows that the UDA can produce.  The self
reference, the diofantic equations etc are tentative ways to stablish a
limit to that exuberance, but either you postulate UDA in its completeness
and everithing produced from UDA exist and therefore I´m right and the
order is only apparent and local, like in the multiverse hypothesis(that i
find equaly unsatisfactory) or you add additional axioms.

>
>
>
>> So at the end while Plato pressuposes order the UDA pressuposes that
>> there are tree elements that produce everithing that exist, and those that
>> does not exist.
>>
>
> I assume comp, and then reason. Like Plato we presuppose order (indeed,
> brought by arithmetic: we know that the order in arithmetic is *very* rich,
> and not completely accessible by *any* effective theory).
> Comp let us just assume no more order than there is in arithmetic, at he
> basic ontological (assumed) level..
>
>
>
>
>
>> Al the end there are two theories of everithing: In the beginning there
>> was order and mind
>>
>
> That is exactly what you get by assuming comp. In the 'beginning' you have
> order (the additive/multiplicative structure of the numbers) and the
> emerging mind from it (the universal consciousness that you associate to
> all universal numbers in arithmetic, by comp, and which is differentiating
> through the indexical (self-referential) FPI).
>
>
>
>
>
>  or at the beginning there was some kind of primitive matter and chaos.
>> Plato theory is in the first case.
>>
>
> Yes. No primitive matter, and the full rich order of the numbers (or of
> any Turing universal system).
>
>
>
>  Yours appears to be in the second.
>>
>
> Not at all. There is no assumed matter, and we assume the order needed to
> make sense of computations and Church thesis. You are right that there is
> some chaos, but that is part of the (new) world of ideas.
>
>
>
>
>
>  What is your route from chaos to Plato?
>>
>
> The One of the Parmenides (used by Plotinus) = arithmetical truth (that is
> full order far beyond what any machine can grasped). Chaos can be there,
> like in the prime numbers, but there is also a lot of music. That chaos is
> there is what is new in Platonia, but Plato could not be aware of Gödel.
> The Noùs (Plato's universe of ideas) is given by the arithmetical truth,
> made partially intelligible by the universal numbers.
> The Soul (Plato's soul, Plotinus' universal soul) is given by the
> conjunction/intersection of the One, and the Noùs.
> Intelligible Matter is given by the conjunction of the Noùs and the
> existence of a reality (self-consistency, Dt).
> Sensible Matter is given by the conjunction of intelligible matter and the
> One.
>
> More on this in the Plotinus' paper. Comp rehabilitates not just Plato,
> but Pythagorus (thanks to Church thesis).
>
> Bruno
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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-- 
Alberto.

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