http://nocorrecto.blogspot.com.es/2011/11/why-women-like-bags-and-shoes-but-only.html

2013/12/11, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>:
> Not a bad achievement.
>
> Instead, the hypothesis that the living beings compute in order to
> solve evolutionary pressures is closer to the Plato world of ideas, Or
> specifically, the Plato-Aristotle syntesis of Thomas Aquinas. and also
> closer to dig knowledge for living, that it , at last, the purpose of
> the philosophers of the antiquity.
>
> It can explain how the world of ideas  is the result of the
> hardcoding, by natural selection. of key concepts and their relations
> in order to survive in society and nature. That go as deep as to
> define reality, the perception of space and time, that is, the entire
> soul, psyche or mind whatever you may call it.
>
> Lorentz explained how the Kantian a prioris, that embrace the platonic
> ideas or Aristotle categories, but also the mechanisms of the
> perceptions are shaped by natural selection. So  matter becomes a
> phenomenon in the mind. and the kantian thing-in-itself becomes
> something whose only attribute is that produces coherent perceptions
> among many observers. It can be purely mathematical and nothing more,
> then.
>
>  The cause-effect may be reversed, to say that the mind determines the
> coherence (That is, the mathematicity) of the external reality and
> also its evolutionary history in order to be coherent with its own
> coherence in time, since what is observed is correlation, not
> causality in one or other direction.
>
> It explains also how the aestetic appreciation of flowers and patterns
> of colors, and the horror to the serpents,  the need to carry empty
> bags and boots (even in summertime) in women is linked to the
> ancestral need to locate patterns of edible vegetables in the wild,
> avoid serpents and carry the gathered vegetables home.
>
> 2013/12/11, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>
>> On 10 Dec 2013, at 23:38, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>
>> You are welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>>> But for what refer to the questions i
>>> asked, I find that my initial assumptions are broadly correct. I find
>>> the platonism of the UDA very different from the Platonism of Plato.
>>
>> It is more pythagorean, and it contains Plotinus correction of
>> Aristotle theory of matter (as mainly an indeterminate).
>>
>> Yes, Platonism evolved a lot from Plato to Damascius, and made a big
>> jump, through Church-Turing and Gödel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> despite the merits that  the hypothesis of mechanism may have to
>>> clarify other questions.
>>
>> The goal is to show that with computationalism, the mind-body problem
>> is a problem in mathematical logic. Then we can see that the solution
>> will satisfy more Plato than Naturalism. Physics become a branch of
>> machine's theology or psychology ...
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/10, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>:
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Dec 2013, at 12:15, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/12/10 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Dec 2013, at 10:40, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me that your invocation of platonism is wrong. For Plato
>>>>> the reality is a shadow of the perfect world of ideas, universals
>>>>> that we can "remember" by anamnesis.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But for you reality is a partial dream,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all.
>>>>> Only physical reality. And it is not "one" dream, it is what result
>>>>> from an infinity of dreams, by the FPI on arithmetic.
>>>>> (FPI = first person indeterminacy, *on* the complete UD emulation in
>>>>> arithmetic).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> but coherent or "robust" product of the aleatory  Dovetailer
>>>>> Machine,
>>>>>
>>>>> + The FPI.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and sometimes we have access to that nonsense by our dreams and
>>>>> hallucinations.
>>>>>
>>>>> By comp, and the FPI on all computations going through our comp
>>>>> state (which exists theoretically, as we work in the comp theory).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So in fact the reality, as the the platonic realm is just the
>>>>> opposite of the one of the UDA: it is full of structure and perfect,
>>>>> while the UDA produces every kind of thing possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only computations. Computer science shows this to be a complex
>>>>> mathematical structure, structured differently from the different
>>>>> points of view of a machines, which themselves obeys the non trivial
>>>>> laws of self-reference. It is full of structure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where that structure come from?
>>>>
>>>> They follow from the laws of addition and multiplication and logic,
>>>> basically from:
>>>>
>>>> 0 ≠ s(x)
>>>> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
>>>> x+0 = x
>>>> x+s(y) = s(x+y)
>>>> x*0=0
>>>> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
>>>>
>>>> The TOE has no other axioms. (Only definitions).
>>>> Note that most scientific theories admit those axioms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I see all computatons possible coming from the UDA,
>>>>
>>>> You mean the UD (the universal dovetailer). UDA is for the "UD
>>>> Argument" (UDA is only the name of a deductive argument based on the
>>>> notion of Universal Dovetailing).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> some of them with structure, some of them do not.
>>>>
>>>> That is ambiguous. They all have some structure. But I am OK, as some
>>>> have internal and external (to them, relatively) random data, also.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It is isomorphic to some subset of the mathematical multiverse
>>>>
>>>> Too much fuzzy. It depends of your starting assumption. "multiverse"
>>>> is usually used in the context of QM. But neither QM, nor "~QM" is
>>>> assumed in the UD Argument.
>>>> The UD argument is deductive (not entirely in step 8 as it is
>>>> intended
>>>> to apply on 'reality' and use Occam razor). It shows that if you
>>>> survive with a digital brain, then you survive in the infinitely many
>>>> arithmetical brain, and physics, to remain a stable appearance has no
>>>> choice to "exploit" an infinite self-multiplication.
>>>>
>>>> UDA reduces partially the mind-body problem (my job) to a body
>>>> problem
>>>> in arithmetic.
>>>>
>>>> It is a problem. Not a solution of a problem (except that in the
>>>> arithmetical translation of the UDA (AUDA), we can already interview
>>>> the universal machine (Löbian one) on that problem, and they tell us
>>>> that Plato seems less foolish than Aristotle.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> or the boltzmann aleatory structures.
>>>>
>>>> Same remark. Keep in mind that if we accept the existence of a
>>>> physical reality, we "meta-reason" to find the deepest laws of
>>>> reality, and be open that physics might not be the fundamental
>>>> theory.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Or can be emulated by UDA.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Note that the UD emulation is entirely deterministic (in the
>>>> 3p),
>>>> and hopefully partially deterministic in the 1p (plural) view.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The only additional merit is the use of few initial assumptions.
>>>>
>>>> I think you miss the point. I am just saying that if comp is correct,
>>>> then adding anything to those initial assumption is a redundant form
>>>> of conceptual treachery.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But to emulate everithing possible with few assumptions is not a
>>>>> merit IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You do miss the point. With all my respect.
>>>> The emulation is only a manner of formulating the problem precisely,
>>>> that is, mathematically.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I´m not trying to be harsh.
>>>>
>>>> No problem. I could look like a philosopher, defending some theory.
>>>> But that's not what I do, and did.
>>>>
>>>> I am a logician, and computer scientist, explaining that if you say
>>>> "yes" to the comp doctor, then (assuming you have enough logical
>>>> cognitive ability) to reduce the comp mind body problem into body
>>>> problem in arithmetic.
>>>> Then I show that we can interview universal machine having such
>>>> cognitive ability, translating indeed the problem into a sequence of
>>>> problems in arithmetic.
>>>> At first sight Plotinus and the mystics are closer to the Löbian
>>>> numbers than Aristotle. I mean in term of coherent whole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just want to put  my impressions in words. The platoninc world of
>>>>> ideas is then ONE of the many possible infinite whoknows that the
>>>>> UDA can produce.
>>>>
>>>> Well, it is just the sigma_1 complete part of a vastly bigger
>>>> arithmetical reality (pi_1, sigma_24, pi_1000, etc.))
>>>>
>>>> It is important to keep in mind the difference between the computable
>>>> part of the arithmetical reality, with the non computable part, and
>>>> the non provable part, by any machines, even ZF+kappa, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The self reference, the diofantic equations etc are tentative ways
>>>>> to stablish a limit to that exuberance, but either you postulate UDA
>>>>> in its completeness and everithing produced from UDA exist and
>>>>> therefore I´m right and the order is only apparent and local, like
>>>>> in the multiverse hypothesis(that i find equaly unsatisfactory) or
>>>>> you add additional axioms.
>>>>
>>>> Comp makes it possible to work entirely in arithmetic. This is a
>>>> theorem in computer science. Even without Church thesis.
>>>>
>>>> You must understand that I am not trying to sell you a new theory. I
>>>> just show that in an older "banal", seemingly innocent, but commonly
>>>> believed or intuited theory, Milinda-Descartes "Mechanism", Church
>>>> thesis makes it possible, and necessary (that's the point),  to
>>>> reduce
>>>> the mind-body problem into a purely arithmetical universal self-
>>>> justification problem, which includes way to distinguishing the many
>>>> points of view, including the physical.
>>>>
>>>> You can understand the conclusion, before understanding that comp
>>>> leads to that conclusion. For this, you have to be open minded for
>>>> non
>>>> materialist, or non physicalist fundamental reality, like the
>>>> arithmetical reality, which contains the many meta-arithmetical
>>>> realities.
>>>>
>>>> I transform a problem into another, mathematical problem. Then I
>>>> solve
>>>> the propositional part of the many points of view, including the
>>>> physical, so we can compare with 'nature'. The presence of three
>>>> arithmetical quantizations give hope to show that the arithmetical
>>>> winner is a quantum computer, but that's remain an open problem.
>>>>
>>>> The subject is difficult, and I might have been mistaken, but in
>>>> principle, it concerns something which you should understand, not
>>>> taken as a new theory.
>>>>
>>>> It is a big problem for the computationalist, but then you ask the
>>>> machines, and they expected that!
>>>>
>>>> UD is a not a solution. It is a precise problem, which confronts all
>>>> universal numbers, and many "inside" things in arithmetic.
>>>>
>>>> Have you read the sane04 paper, or the new one?
>>>>
>>>> UDA can be understood by any good willing human reasoner. I think.
>>>> AUDA necessitates familiarity with mathematical logic and computer
>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> AUDA shows that UDA can be understood by any good willing universal
>>>> number.
>>>>
>>>> But it is a problem, not a solution, although AUDA provides the
>>>> solutions at the propositional level, in the ideal case of sound
>>>> arithmetical machines, admitting (us) the standard theory of
>>>> knowledge
>>>> (S4).
>>>>
>>>> With comp we have to extend the embedding of the physicist in the
>>>> physical reality by an embedding of the mathematician in the
>>>> mathematical reality. But that was what Gödel made, by showing how
>>>> to
>>>> arithmetized meta-arithmetic. With comp, that embedding of the
>>>> machines in the arithmetical reality is enough to formulate the
>>>> problem precisely.
>>>>
>>>> The hard work has been done by Gödel, Löb, Grzegorczyk, Solovay,
>>>> and
>>>> Visser (and many others).
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So at the end while Plato pressuposes order the UDA pressuposes that
>>>>> there are tree elements that produce everithing that exist, and
>>>>> those that does not exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> I assume comp, and then reason. Like Plato we presuppose order
>>>>> (indeed, brought by arithmetic: we know that the order in arithmetic
>>>>> is *very* rich, and not completely accessible by *any* effective
>>>>> theory).
>>>>> Comp let us just assume no more order than there is in arithmetic,
>>>>> at he basic ontological (assumed) level..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Al the end there are two theories of everithing: In the beginning
>>>>> there was order and mind
>>>>>
>>>>> That is exactly what you get by assuming comp. In the 'beginning'
>>>>> you have order (the additive/multiplicative structure of the
>>>>> numbers) and the emerging mind from it (the universal consciousness
>>>>> that you associate to all universal numbers in arithmetic, by comp,
>>>>> and which is differentiating through the indexical (self-
>>>>> referential) FPI).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> or at the beginning there was some kind of primitive matter and
>>>>> chaos. Plato theory is in the first case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. No primitive matter, and the full rich order of the numbers (or
>>>>> of any Turing universal system).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours appears to be in the second.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. There is no assumed matter, and we assume the order
>>>>> needed to make sense of computations and Church thesis. You are
>>>>> right that there is some chaos, but that is part of the (new) world
>>>>> of ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is your route from chaos to Plato?
>>>>>
>>>>> The One of the Parmenides (used by Plotinus) = arithmetical truth
>>>>> (that is full order far beyond what any machine can grasped). Chaos
>>>>> can be there, like in the prime numbers, but there is also a lot of
>>>>> music. That chaos is there is what is new in Platonia, but Plato
>>>>> could not be aware of Gödel.
>>>>> The Noùs (Plato's universe of ideas) is given by the arithmetical
>>>>> truth, made partially intelligible by the universal numbers.
>>>>> The Soul (Plato's soul, Plotinus' universal soul) is given by the
>>>>> conjunction/intersection of the One, and the Noùs.
>>>>> Intelligible Matter is given by the conjunction of the Noùs and the
>>>>> existence of a reality (self-consistency, Dt).
>>>>> Sensible Matter is given by the conjunction of intelligible matter
>>>>> and the One.
>>>>>
>>>>> More on this in the Plotinus' paper. Comp rehabilitates not just
>>>>> Plato, but Pythagorus (thanks to Church thesis).
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Alberto.
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alberto.
>>>
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>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Alberto.
>


-- 
Alberto.

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