On 12/10/2013 12:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 09 Dec 2013, at 23:28, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/9/2013 12:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 12/9/2013 12:44 AM, LizR wrote:
    On 9 December 2013 20:56, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 12/8/2013 4:36 PM, LizR wrote:
        On 9 December 2013 07:41, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com
        <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

            On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
            <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

                    >> Determinism is far from "well established".


                > It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory.


            In the most important theory in physics, Quantum Mechanics, no such
            assumption is made, and despite a century of trying no experiment 
has
            ever been performed that even hinted such a deterministic assumption
            should be added in.


        I believe the two-slit experiment hints that QM is deterministic by 
implying
        the existence of a multiverse.
        Wasn't it you, Liz, that pointed out this was circular.  Everett 
assumes a
        multiverse in order to make QM determinsitic.

    I did say something like that, didn't I? [insert embarrassed emoticon here].

    I think I was saying that it was too strong to say that QM "follows the 
principle
    of determinism" (or something like that) because it appears to be 
indeterminate
    and only becomes deterministic thanks to Everett. However, the two-slit
    experiment does /suggest/ the multiverse as a valid explanation, in that any
    other explanation requires other principles to be violated (causality, 
locality...)

    I think I was attempting to position myself between John and Jason - to say 
that
    determinism is reasonably well established, but only as a result of a long 
and
    winding process of experiment, conjecture and so on.


    But it isn't.  As Roland Omnes says, quantum mechanics is a probabilistic 
theory
    so it predicts probabilities - what did you expect? Among apostles of 
Everett
    there's a lot of trashing of Copenhagen.  But Bohr's idea was that the 
classical
    world, where things happened and results were recorded, was *logically* 
prior to
    the quantum mechanics.  QM was a way of making predictions about what could 
done
    and observed.  Today what might be termed neo-Copenhagen is advocated by 
Chris
    Fuchs and maybe Scott Aronson.  I highly recommend Scott's book "Quantum 
Computing
    Since Democritus".  It's kind of heavy going in the middle, but if you're 
just
    interested in the philosophical implications you can skip to the last 
chapters.
    Violation of Bell's inequality can be used to guarantee the randomness of 
numbers,
    http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.3427v3.pdf, assuming only locality.



Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox:

1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects

That's non-local hidden variable - which is exactly what a parallel universe is.

What is non local here?

A whole world is duplicated - including remote parts.

Brent





2. Measurements have more than one outcome

In light of Bell's theorem, either special relativity is false or many-world's 
is true.

I agree with Jason.

Bruno



Jason

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