On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  On 12/9/2013 12:44 AM, LizR wrote:
>  On 9 December 2013 20:56, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>   On 12/8/2013 4:36 PM, LizR wrote:
>>  On 9 December 2013 07:41, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>          >> Determinism is far from "well established".
>>>>  > It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory.
>>>  In the most important theory in physics, Quantum Mechanics, no such
>>> assumption is made, and despite a century of trying no experiment has ever
>>> been performed that even hinted such a deterministic assumption should be
>>> added in.
>>  I believe the two-slit experiment hints that QM is deterministic by
>> implying the existence of a multiverse.
>>  Wasn't it you, Liz, that pointed out this was circular.  Everett
>> assumes a multiverse in order to make QM determinsitic.
>>  I did say something like that, didn't I? [insert embarrassed emoticon
> here].
>  I think I was saying that it was too strong to say that QM "follows the
> principle of determinism" (or something like that) because it appears to be
> indeterminate and only becomes deterministic thanks to Everett. However,
> the two-slit experiment does *suggest* the multiverse as a valid
> explanation, in that any other explanation requires other principles to be
> violated (causality, locality...)
>  I think I was attempting to position myself between John and Jason - to
> say that determinism is reasonably well established, but only as a result
> of a long and winding process of experiment, conjecture and so on.
> But it isn't.  As Roland Omnes says, quantum mechanics is a probabilistic
> theory so it predicts probabilities - what did you expect?  Among apostles
> of Everett there's a lot of trashing of Copenhagen.  But Bohr's idea was
> that the classical world, where things happened and results were recorded,
> was *logically* prior to the quantum mechanics.  QM was a way of making
> predictions about what could done and observed.  Today what might be termed
> neo-Copenhagen is advocated by Chris Fuchs and maybe Scott Aronson.  I
> highly recommend Scott's book "Quantum Computing Since Democritus".  It's
> kind of heavy going in the middle, but if you're just interested in the
> philosophical implications you can skip to the last chapters.  Violation of
> Bell's inequality can be used to guarantee the randomness of numbers,
> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.3427v3.pdf, assuming only locality.
Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which
leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox:

1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects
2. Measurements have more than one outcome

In light of Bell's theorem, either special relativity is false or
many-world's is true.


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