2013/12/10 meekerdb <[email protected]> > On 12/10/2013 12:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 09 Dec 2013, at 23:28, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/9/2013 12:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 12/9/2013 12:44 AM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 9 December 2013 20:56, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 12/8/2013 4:36 PM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 9 December 2013 07:41, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Jason Resch <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >> Determinism is far from "well established". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In the most important theory in physics, Quantum Mechanics, no such >>>> assumption is made, and despite a century of trying no experiment has ever >>>> been performed that even hinted such a deterministic assumption should be >>>> added in. >>>> >>> >>> I believe the two-slit experiment hints that QM is deterministic by >>> implying the existence of a multiverse. >>> >>> Wasn't it you, Liz, that pointed out this was circular. Everett >>> assumes a multiverse in order to make QM determinsitic. >>> >>> I did say something like that, didn't I? [insert embarrassed emoticon >> here]. >> >> I think I was saying that it was too strong to say that QM "follows the >> principle of determinism" (or something like that) because it appears to be >> indeterminate and only becomes deterministic thanks to Everett. However, >> the two-slit experiment does *suggest* the multiverse as a valid >> explanation, in that any other explanation requires other principles to be >> violated (causality, locality...) >> >> I think I was attempting to position myself between John and Jason - to >> say that determinism is reasonably well established, but only as a result >> of a long and winding process of experiment, conjecture and so on. >> >> >> >> But it isn't. As Roland Omnes says, quantum mechanics is a >> probabilistic theory so it predicts probabilities - what did you expect? >> Among apostles of Everett there's a lot of trashing of Copenhagen. But >> Bohr's idea was that the classical world, where things happened and results >> were recorded, was *logically* prior to the quantum mechanics. QM was a >> way of making predictions about what could done and observed. Today what >> might be termed neo-Copenhagen is advocated by Chris Fuchs and maybe Scott >> Aronson. I highly recommend Scott's book "Quantum Computing Since >> Democritus". It's kind of heavy going in the middle, but if you're just >> interested in the philosophical implications you can skip to the last >> chapters. Violation of Bell's inequality can be used to guarantee the >> randomness of numbers, http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.3427v3.pdf, assuming >> only locality. >> >> >> > Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which > leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox: > > 1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects > > > That's non-local hidden variable - which is exactly what a parallel > universe is. > > > What is non local here? > > > A whole world is duplicated - including remote parts. > > No decoherence is spread through the environment at light speed.
Quentin > Brent > > > > > > 2. Measurements have more than one outcome > > In light of Bell's theorem, either special relativity is false or > many-world's is true. > > > I agree with Jason. > > Bruno > > > > Jason > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
