On Saturday, December 28, 2013 4:10:08 PM UTC-5, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
>
> Hey Craig,
>
> What is the origin of the quote?
>

It was just something that someone said on Facebook, but I feel like it 
represents the thinking of a lot of people.
 

> Also, what privileges the process of 'introspection' to reveal anything 
> contrary to the hypothesis that we are machines? Isn't introspection a bit 
> of a dubious test for finding out a thing's machinehood? 
>

Through introspection we can find out what we mean by machine. When we do, 
I think that we find that we mean automatic, unconscious, unfeeling, 
superficial, etc. The fact that we can introspect at all is, by that sense 
of machine, diametrically opposed to mechanism.
 

>
> Finally, I'm not so sure that it is 'consciousness' (yet another word that 
> is frequently thrown around as a symbol with no proper referent) that is 
> responsible for uniqueness and unrepeatability as it is the infinitesimally 
> small chance that all of the quantum correlations that exist in a current 
> observer moment could ever be repeated... and if they could, that would 
> nevertheless include no information about whether the entire state had been 
> repeated or not. 
>

I don't think that any state can be literally repeated, as the totality is 
present in all states.
 

>
> I dunno, seems like a lot of hand waving to me... I do feel rather 
> convinced of precisely the sentiment that the quotation you led off with 
> expresses, namely that we are machines made of machines made of machines 
> made of... information eventually. And the information is processed by some 
> set of very fundamental rules.
>
> What are "rules" and how can anything 'follow' them?
>  
>
I do get your rejoinder, however.... which I think is something like: If 
> everything is information fundamentally operating according to 
> computational principles, why on earth would there "be something" that it 
> is like to be that computation? Whence the "inner life" and rich inner 
> experiences we have access to in introspection?
>

Not inner fire or rich experience, but *any* experience at all.
 

> Whence the qualia? And honestly, I don't have an answer for that.
>

But I think that I do, and it seems to make more sense than "information".
 

> I take it your answer (sorry to rehash some of this, but I find it helpful 
> to deepen my understanding) is that everything is endowed with primitive 
> "sense making" faculties,
>

Close, but I'm actually proposing that there is no everything other than 
sense making faculties. Sense experience is all there can ever be.
 

> kind of like a panpsychism. 
>

I say Primordial Identity Pansensitivity
 

> I'm wondering, why can't this axiom simply be added on to the idea that we 
> are machines made of information? i.e. we are machines made of information 
> and information itself has an inner life?  
>

Because information has no plausible reason to have or want an inner life. 
With the sense primitive, it is perfectly plausible to imagine that the 
invention of a common structure would serve to organize and enhance 
aesthetic values. With the information primitive, both sense and physics 
are incoherent and absurd.


> It's beginning to sound a lot like woo, so I'd better stop there. 
>

Seems ok to me?

Thanks,
Craig
 

>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> On Saturday, December 28, 2013 9:40:32 AM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>
>> "humans are machines unable to recognize the fact that they are machines,"
>>>
>>
>> I would re-word it as 'Humans are not machines but when they introspect 
>> on their most mechanical aspects mechanistically, they are able to imagine 
>> that they could be machines who are unable recognize the fact."
>>
>> I agree that there is an intrinsic limit to Strong AI, but I think that 
>> the limit is at the starting gate. Since consciousness is the embodiment of 
>> uniqueness and unrepeatability, there is no "almost" conscious. It doesn't 
>> matter how much the artist in the painting looks like he is really painting 
>> himself in the mirror, or how realistic Escher makes the staircase look, 
>> those realities are forever sculpted in theory, not in the multisense 
>> realism.
>>
>

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