On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Apparently we are not talking about the same scenario here somehow.
>
> Only acceleration/gravitation effects produce permanent clock time
> differences that both observers agree to when they meet up again.
>

This contradicts established physics and therefore is falsified
Richard



>
> The same amount of acceleration, no matter where or when (or an equivalent
> gravitational field), produces the same amount of permanent time dilation.
>

This contradicts physical data that is repeatable and therefore the
hypothesis is falsified.
Richard


>
> You claim that this is an SR effect and a geometric effect. As I said you
> can analyze it that way, but the fact is that the geometry is CAUSED by GR
> gravitational and acceleration effects. As I'm sure you know gravitation
> expresses itself via spacetime geometry. In any world line diagram, changes
> in direction of the lines are CAUSED by accelerations. The geometry is an
> effect of gravitation/acceleration. That is GR at work...
>
> Or maybe you are confusing the picture by confusing GR and SR effects. It
> is true that accelerations also cause relative motions which add SR effects
> to the GR effects, but all relative motion effects are NON-permanent and
> cease as soon as the relative motion ceases and the twins meet up again.
>
> So you CANNOT properly analyze this with respect to Present moment P-time,
> as I pointed out in great detail in yesterday's post, WHILE there is still
> relative motion. That leads to a contradiction, and I clearly explained
> that contradiction and why it does not falsify the notion of a common
> present moment in my post yesterday.
>
> There is always a common Present moment P-time, but (only) during relative
> motion it is impossible to assign a consistent mapping that ALL observers
> agree upon of clock time to P-time. But that doesn't mean P-time doesn't
> exist. It just says that SR clock time effects can't be mapped consistently
> to it because they are different for different relative motion observers in
> the SAME present moment. But that is a temporary illusion of measurement.
>
> Relative motion equal and opposite clock time dilation is an ILLUSION of
> measurement that disappears as soon as the relative motion stops. On the
> other hand acceleration/gravitation clock time dilation is an absolute
> permanent clock time effect that all observers agree upon WHEN there is no
> relative motion.
>
> That should clarify everything but I fear it won't....
>
> Edgar
>
> On Friday, January 3, 2014 11:23:42 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Come on Jason. Of course not. You have to have EQUAL amounts of
>>> acceleration to produce the same effect. But doesn't matter where in space
>>> it  is.
>>>
>>
>> There are equal amounts of acceleration in both cases: 4 minutes worth.
>>
>> What there is not equal amounts of is relativistic time dilation, which
>> is what explains the bulk of the age difference in the Sam-Pam case. The
>> time dilation and slowed ageing of Pam is due to her high speed. She does
>> not regain those lost years when she comes to a stop. So your statement
>> that all the effects of SR vanish once they are back in the same frame is
>> false.
>>
>> True, they are no longer time dilated or length contracted relative to
>> each other, but they are still different in age because of it.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Edgar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, January 3, 2014 10:24:26 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jason,
>>>>>
>>>>> If the acceleration is the same, the slowing of clock time will be the
>>>>> same... Doesn't matter where it is. Or equivalently (by the principle of
>>>>> equivalence) it could be standing 'still' in a strong gravitational field.
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Okay but this is certainly not what happens.  If you spent 4 minutes
>>>> accelerating and came back, there would not be a 4 year age difference when
>>>> Pam returned.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, January 3, 2014 10:06:08 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lliz, Brent and Jason,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually Liz is correct here, by GR it is the acceleration. That is
>>>>>>> the physical cause of the clock time differences of the twins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experiment, lets say the acceleration lats for a total of 4
>>>>>> minutes: one minute to accelerate up to 0.8 c, one minute to slow down at
>>>>>> Proxima Centauri, one minute to accelerate back up to 0.8 c toward Earth,
>>>>>> and a final minute to accelerate down to back at Earth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the accelerations alone account for the clock discrepancies, then
>>>>>> there would be no need to go to Proxima Centauri at all.  Pam could 
>>>>>> spend 4
>>>>>> minutes whizzing around the solar system and get in all the same
>>>>>> accelerations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this what you are saying?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  It is true the effects can also be analyzed just by spacetime paths
>>>>>>> as others have suggested, but it is actually the acceleration (or
>>>>>>> equivalent gravitational field which is in effect an acceleration) which
>>>>>>> actually physically produces the clock time differences when the twins 
>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>> up again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, January 3, 2014 1:27:55 AM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3 January 2014 17:30, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  On 1/2/2014 8:00 PM, LizR wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  On 3 January 2014 15:52, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:31 PM, LizR <liz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jason,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  You may be missing the fact that the acceleration of the space
>>>>>>>>>>> traveller is what causes the twin paradox.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  I would say it is not so much the acceleration that explains
>>>>>>>>>> the paradox, but the fact that no matter how you rotate the paths, 
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> always see a kink in the path Pam takes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  May I venture to suggest this is the same thing :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's not exactly wrong - but it tends to make it confusing.
>>>>>>>>> It's like saying a road from A to B is longer than as-the-crow-flies
>>>>>>>>> because of its curves.  Yeah, that's true; but if you want to 
>>>>>>>>> calculate how
>>>>>>>>> much longer you see that the rate of excess distance is proportional 
>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> first integral of the curvature and so the total excess is the second
>>>>>>>>> integral of the curvature - which is just the distance.  So it boils 
>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> to unstraight lines are longer than straight lines.  All the specific
>>>>>>>>> details of acceleration get integrated out so it's easy to see that a
>>>>>>>>> broken line (infinite accelerations) is just longer.  Or in spacetime,
>>>>>>>>> unstraight worldlines are shorter than straight ones.  To phrase it in
>>>>>>>>> terms of acceleration misleads people into thinking about the 
>>>>>>>>> stressful
>>>>>>>>> effects of acceleration and how that could affect a clock,...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I bow to your superior knowledge. I wasn't thinking about the
>>>>>>>> aging effects of acceleration (as in the Heinlein story where they 
>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>> fly to Pluto at 3G) but just the fact that the course changes are the 
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> way the twin paradox can be enacted - that is to say, it's what breaks 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> symmetry that otherwise exists between one ref frame's measurements and
>>>>>>>> another's.
>>>>>>>>
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