On Monday, February 24, 2014, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Stathis, > > First thanks for answering my questions that Jesse refused to answer. > > A few more questions if I may. > > 1. Are you a believer in a block universe, or are you just presenting the > argument for it? The following questions assume belief. > Agnostic. > 2. You don't believe time flows, that everything in the block universe is > completely static. Is that correct? > It feels like time flows but if I think about it I don't understand what that really means. I could say that it's just an obvious, basic fact that time flows or I could say that the idea of time actually flowing is conceptually impossible. > 3. So if we can prove that time does flow would that be sufficient to > disprove a block universe? > Yes, though not its impossibility. > 4. Do you believe that the appearance of time flowing, which we all have, > is somehow a static perspective from some present moment along your > historical worldline? > If we live in a block universe, yes. > 5. Do you believe that the appearance of time flowing is due to a single > static perspective from a single fixed moment along your historical > worldline, or the transition of static perspectives similar to a sequence > of movie frames? > Even if time does flow it's due to a single static perspective, since the before and after moments aren't there. > 6. In other words, does anything actually move in your block universe, or > not? > If what we think of as movement is frames in a block universe then of course there is actual movement. > 7. If not, how can a completely static perspective generate the illusion > of movement through time? I claim it cannot. It can generate a freeze from > perspective only, not the illusion of movement. > Zeno discussed the impossibility of movement 2500 years ago and he didn't assume either a block universe or quantised time. > 8. Since a block universe contains every detail of every event in the > entire history of the universe from beginning to end, and those details > demonstrate immensely complex and consistent causal sequences, how could > they have all been created at the same time Acausally? What physical > mechanism could possibly work out all causal sequences without doing it > temporally? > It's begging the question by assuming flowing time is coherent, correct and the only way to account for stuff happening. In a block universe the causal sequence exists without explicit ordering, as the natural numbers form a sequence without being put in order one by one on a number line. > 9. Do you agree that this creation event (of the entire universe from > beginning to end) would have been the most enormously improbably creation > ever imaginable, a creation event that makes the Biblical creation event > seem reasonable by comparison? > No more than a non block universe creation. > 10. If you think there was no creation event, that the block universe > always existed, do you agree that the assumption that the whole universe > from beginning to end is the most UNparsimonius assumption possible and > thus is the most least likely assumption based on Occam's Principle? > No, there is less to explain if everything that can exist does exist than if only a subset of the possible exists; for why that subset? > Thanks, > Edgar > > > > On Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:37:31 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Sunday, February 23, 2014, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: > > Jesse, > > 1. Do you agree you are actually a particular age right now today as you > read this? > > > Not Jesse, but yes. > > 2. Do you agree that I am actually a particular age right now today as I > write this, whether or not you know what that is? > > > Yes. > > > 3. Do you agree that we can both agree on those two ages? > > > Yes. > > > 4. Do you agree that if we were at the same location we would be in the > same present moment? > > > If we were at the same space and time location, yes. > > > 5. Since you believe you are actually alive in every moment of your life, > including every past and future moment, why is this particular moment the > one you experience yourself in right now? > > > That's sort of trivial if you look at it the right way. They are all > different versions of me, and I'm the version of me who is writing this at > the moment. Each other version of me would say something similar, that they > are the version in their own here and now, and not any of the other > versions. > > > 6. Since you no doubt will claim that every one of your moment selves > experiences itself in its present moment, then how do you explain your > experience of time flowing from those past moments to the present one? And > how do you explain that you have no experience of any of your future moment > selves? If the past and present moments are equivalent, why are they not > symmetrical in this respect? > > > Block time is compatible with an arrow of time. As a model, consider a > computer simulation running on two separate computers, A and B. A is > simulating Monday and B is simulating Tuesday. The people simulated on B > remember being the people simulated on A, but not vice versa, even though A > and B are running simultaneously. > > > Again I know this conversation won't go anywhere. It's like trying to make > a logical argument to a cult member. > > And yes, our disagreement is p-time versus block time, because all your > arguments are basically based on your conviction there is no such thing as > an actual now, an actual present moment in which you exist and are actually > a particular age. > > > There's no special present moment. As an analogy, I feel that I am me, but > there are many other people in the world who feel that they are themselves. > I'm no more special than they are, and their sense of being themselves does > not detract from my sense of being myself. > > > If you could just accept that all my many arguments and examples would > follow logically. > > Last question: Why do you act every minute of every day as if you live in > a present moment through which clock time flows if it actually d > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" gro -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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