On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: > > You point out that from the POV of all arbitrary frames they won't be, BUT > the point is we MUST use a frame that MAINTAINS the real and actual > symmetry to determine the ACTUAL REALITY of this situation. >
Why? You give no rational justification for why "reality" should coincide with the frame where the coordinates assigned to their paths are symmetrical as opposed to any other frame which makes the same physical predictions, this just seems like a quasi-aesthetic intuition on your part. But I also have a more definitive argument against identifying "simultaneity in the frame where their paths look symmetrical" with any sort of absolute simultaneity--because, as I have said over and over, it leads directly to contradictions when we consider multiple "symmetrical" pairs of observers, and the transitive nature of absolute simultaneity/p-time. If you will just respond to my Feb 24 post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/dM2tcGYspfMJ as you promised to do earlier, then as soon as we are completely settled on the matter of whether events that have the same space and time coordinates in an inertial frame must have happened at the same p-time, we can go back and look at the Alice/Bob/Arlene/Bart example at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/pxg0VAAHJRQJwhich PROVES that a contradiction follows from your assumptions, given the premise that events with the same space and time coordinates in an inertial frame happened at the same p-time. > > Do you agree that if we choose a frame that preserves the real and actual > symmetry of the trip that we do get EQUAL proper times between all markers > on the twins respective trips? And thus that we CAN establish a 1:1 > correlation of proper times in this case? > The "real and actual symmetry" is that they have symmetrical proper accelerations as a function of proper time, but ALL frames preserve this symmetry. I agree that we are free to use a frame where their coordinate velocities and proper time as a function of coordinate time are ALSO symmetrical, but these are simply statements about coordinates, I see no reason to consider them any more "real and actual" than the coordinates assigned to their paths in any other frame. Jesse -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.