On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:
>
> You point out that from the POV of all arbitrary frames they won't be, BUT
> the point is we MUST use a frame that MAINTAINS the real and actual
> symmetry to determine the ACTUAL REALITY of this situation.
>

Why? You give no rational justification for why "reality" should coincide
with the frame where the coordinates assigned to their paths are
symmetrical as opposed to any other frame which makes the same physical
predictions, this just seems like a quasi-aesthetic intuition on your part.
But I also have a more definitive argument against identifying
"simultaneity in the frame where their paths look symmetrical" with any
sort of absolute simultaneity--because, as I have said over and over, it
leads directly to contradictions when we consider multiple "symmetrical"
pairs of observers, and the transitive nature of absolute
simultaneity/p-time. If you will just respond to my Feb 24 post at
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/dM2tcGYspfMJ as
you promised to do earlier, then as soon as we are completely settled on
the matter of whether events that have the same space and time coordinates
in an inertial frame must have happened at the same p-time, we can go back
and look at the Alice/Bob/Arlene/Bart example at
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/pxg0VAAHJRQJwhich
PROVES that a contradiction follows from your assumptions, given the
premise that events with the same space and time coordinates in an inertial
frame happened at the same p-time.


>
> Do you agree that if we choose a frame that preserves the real and actual
> symmetry of the trip that we do get EQUAL proper times between all markers
> on the twins respective trips? And thus that we CAN establish a 1:1
> correlation of proper times in this case?
>


The "real and actual symmetry" is that they have symmetrical proper
accelerations as a function of proper time, but ALL frames preserve this
symmetry. I agree that we are free to use a frame where their coordinate
velocities and proper time as a function of coordinate time are ALSO
symmetrical, but these are simply statements about coordinates, I see no
reason to consider them any more "real and actual" than the coordinates
assigned to their paths in any other frame.

Jesse

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