On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 29-May-2014, at 7:56 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Ok, so let's talk some specifics. >> >> Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. >> Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for >> drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small >> publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed. >> >> >> The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of >> those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not >> prescribe any of the above forms of punishment. >> >> >> Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, their >> husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing >> against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for >> adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way >> and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from >> going to school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending >> school. >> >> The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers (not rape >> victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, and if the >> witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons who give >> false witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in any other >> case. >> >> Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the >> interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which >> is advised, not beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it >> means beating. I disagree. >> >> Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; >> head covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all >> religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not >> make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men >> and women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures. >> The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when going >> out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise? >> >> Homosexuality is considered a crime. >> >> Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 >> contains guidance for how to deal with this crime. >> >> Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment. >> >> Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe it >> is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. >> However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented >> in an ideal Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are >> almost non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any >> need for survival. >> >> So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, do >> you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran? >> >> >> I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I >> accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof. >> However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the factual >> accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of science. I >> am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is God's gift >> to the willing heart. >> > > You're avoiding the point. Your specific claim was that the Quran > teachings are ethical, and that perceptions to the contrary stem from media > disinformation. So I submitted to you a list of things that make me > conclude that the Quran teachings are unethical. Very honestly, my previous > beliefs were reinforced. We have unreconcilable views on ethics. > > Telmo. > > > Yes, our views are different. We think it unethical to cheat on our spouse, > I agree that it is unethical to lie or break agreements, but I place more importance on the abuse of force against other people. Society administering humiliating physical punishments for something that happened within a private agreement between adults is a worse crime. > we think it's wrong to steal, > I agree, but again, depriving someone of a part of their bodies is a much much much worse crime than stealing. > we think it's perfectly ethical for a woman to try and protect herself, > No you don't. You prohibit them from taking basic steps towards self-sufficiency, so you expose them to the enormous risk of lifelong dependency on a small number of close relatives. > and so on. You object to the punishment, we object to the crime. > It is deeper than that, unfortunately. Your punishments go against what I consider the fundamental ethical principles and your crimes in include things that I see either as ethically neutral (sexual orientation) or fundamental human freedoms (speech, artistic expression, personal beliefs). > We believe the Quran has been revealed by a higher intelligence who knows > us inside out, and guides us in matters where we may not be able to > legislate appropriately. We believe the laws are based on morally sound > principles of justice and fair play. You're entitled to your opinion, > I am entitled to my opinion because I wasn't born in a society that follows the laws you are defending, let's be clear about this. > but I strongly advise that you evaluate and ascertain for yourself that > the Quran is a human invention, and not divine guidance, lest you reject > something great! > Samiya > > > >> >> Samiya >> >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> You assume that Islam is unethical. Quranic teachings are based on >>> beautiful moral principles and enjoin ethical and just relations among >>> people. The Quran repeatedly enjoins good actions, read it and you'll be >>> amazed how far from truth all the negative propaganda against it is! >>> Whether people study and follow the scripture or not is up to them. If >>> we start following the guidance, most of the social evils will be weeded >>> out. >>> Sadly, you confuse peoples' thoughts, behaviour and actions with the >>> message itself. It really doesn't matter if we label ourselves as Muslims, >>> Jews, or any other religion or not, or if we are a member of the clergy or >>> hold any leadership position in the community, it is basically our beliefs, >>> intentions and actions that make us who we are and which we carry with us >>> when we depart from this life. >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> On 28-May-2014, at 8:52 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> For me, its the actual physical, ethics, that need to be tuned up. >>> Getting to paradise, however delightful, over someone's dead body is >>> unethical. Morality, is between humans and God technically, but ethics is >>> between people. God, as he exists, can take care of himself, but the all >>> the humbleness in the world, devotion, passion, cannot correct issues, if >>> the Imams, and Muftis, instruct otherwise. Even if the Koran, Soonah, and >>> Bukhari are all God given and have predictions that only God would know, it >>> does no good if the earth gets drowned in blood by seekers of paradise. >>> Unhelpful indeed. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: LizR <[email protected]> >>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:32 am >>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>> >>> Here's page 1307 - I would prefer it if you quoted whatever it is >>> you're referring to rather than giving a link to a (rather difficult to >>> access) online book, because it doesn't mean much to me... >>> <page1307.png> >>> >>> As for the second link, I don't understand what it says there either - >>> it certainly isn't a very succinct "summary". >>> >>> >>> On 28 May 2014 16:19, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> There is a debate between the interpretation of the word s-j-d. I >>>> assume it also means to become lowly, humble, submissive, and not only >>>> physical prostration. [http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/ Book 1 >>>> Page 1307 ] >>>> Summary of why is can't only mean physical prostration: >>>> http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:10 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does it also explain how planets prostrate themselves? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28 May 2014 15:51, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I won't be surprised if they eventually discover that there are a >>>>>> total of 11 or 12 planets in the solar system. >>>>>> [Al-Qur'an 12:4, Translator: Pickthall] When Joseph said unto his >>>>>> father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and >>>>>> the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me. >>>>>> [Al-Qur'an 12:100, Translator: Pickthall] And he placed his parents >>>>>> on the dais and they fell down before him prostrate, and he said: O my >>>>>> father! This is the interpretation of my dream of old. My Lord hath made >>>>>> it >>>>>> true, and He hath shown me kindness, since He took me out of the prison >>>>>> and >>>>>> hath brought you from the desert after Satan had made strife between me >>>>>> and >>>>>> my brethren. Lo! my Lord is tender unto whom He will. He is the Knower, >>>>>> the >>>>>> Wise. >>>>>> >>>>>> Samiya >>>>>> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Pluto Bids To Get Back Planetary Status Pluto has at least five >>>>>>>> moons, an atmosphere and now a new analysis places its diameter as >>>>>>>> bigger >>>>>>>> than its outer solar system rival Eris. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/pluto-bids-for-planethood/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more 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stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to 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